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Lord Monson: My Lords, when I withdrew my amendments on the equivalent clause nine days ago on Report, I intimated that I would come back on Third Reading with amendments that represented even more of a compromise, shifting further towards the Government's position in the hope and expectation that they would be acceptable to the Minister.
I feel confident that my Amendment No. 32 should be acceptable to the Government for the simple reason that it is based entirely on the Minister's assurances. On 16th April, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said categorically:
- "Serving policemen and policewomen will not be recruited from abroad".
- "Foreign nationals will need to be resident in the UK with no restrictions attached to their stay in order to qualify".—[Official Report, 16/4/02; col. 887.]
Amendment No. 32 merely enshrines those verbal assurances in statute, just in case a subsequent government, less scrupulous than this one, were to toy with the idea of reneging on them. I therefore trust that the Government will accept either Amendment No. 31, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, or Amendment No. 32, as well as Amendment No. 33, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, which is also broadly based on the Government's assurances.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I, too, support all three of the amendments. As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, will remember, I wished to oppose what is now Clause 68 in Committee and on Report. However, in view of the full and candid discussions that we had then, I shall not oppose it any further. These three amendments would add clarity to the clause and remove doubts without changing the substance to any extent that the Government may worry about.
I shall briefly comment on each of the three amendments, the first of which is Amendment No. 31, moved by my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith. If a person would not qualify for naturalisation as a British subject, surely it would be absurd to say that he would be suitable to be a police officer. That is why I support my noble friend's amendment.
Amendment No. 32 does not make a big change, but it does add clarity. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, simply suggests adding the words,
- "who is resident in the United Kingdom",
As for my own amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was very candid and fair-minded when he replied to us on this rather difficult matter. I did not think that the clause was well drafted. When I said that
the word "may" went too far in relation to the qualifications mentioned in subsection (4), he pointed out that some of the people mentioned in subsection (1)—for example, a member of the Royal Parks Constabulary—are in a different position from those who are going to be appointed police officers. So my amendment clarifies the position and says that those who are going to have the responsibility of being police officers should meet the requirements set out in subsection (4), which I shall quickly mention. They are:
- "competence in written and spoken English",
- "requirements with respect to . . . immigration status",
- "requirements with respect to nationality in the case of particular ranks, offices or positions".
Surely my amendment has the advantage of specifying which of the ranks should be regarded in that way. It is a very simple amendment which merely brings into relationship the provisions of subsection (1) and the provisions of subsection (4). I do hope that that will appeal to the Minister.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I was rather hesitant about this provision on Report because we do not yet know what the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill will provide, and that legislation may have a considerable impact on the operation of this provision. However, I believe that Amendment No. 31 is worthy of consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, rightly points out various difficulties—such as that the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill has yet to be considered in your Lordships' House. We shall have to examine in detail those provisions on citizenship, in Schedule 1. Consequently, we are discussing a provision that has not yet received parliamentary consent. If we are later to approve a provision on citizenship, how will it affect the provisions in this Bill on the employment of police officers?
Amendment No. 31 requires detailed scrutiny. What we must not do is put ourselves in the type of situation that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor encountered in relation to magistrates affected by earlier nationality legislation. That created quite a lot of conflict. Some of the magistrates have been asked not to continue in that role. We do not want people already employed as police officers to be similarly retrospectively affected by earlier legislation. The provision therefore requires very careful scrutiny.
I hope that the Minister will take Amendment No. 31 away and examine its full implications and, if appropriate, propose a suitable provision in the other place. We must, however, exercise a little caution. The provision should also be examined within the context of anti-discrimination legislation to ensure that none of those provisions are breached. Overall, however, the amendment addresses a substantial issue which requires very careful consideration.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Dholakia has mentioned the difficulties that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has encountered with regard to magistrates and the letter he has had to send to 150 serving magistrates asking them to resign their post because they are not British citizens but citizens of other European countries or, in one case, the United States, will the Minister give us an assurance that no one affected by Clause 68 will be subject to review of his position under Section 2 of the Act of Settlement 1701? After all, it took the Lord Chancellor 300 years to discover that that legislation affected magistrates. Who is to say that, in future, it may not affect many other people in our system of law and order? I should therefore be grateful if the Minister could give me an assurance that the Act of Settlement will not be discovered to affect anyone mentioned in this Bill, including those who are dealt with under Clause 68.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I think that I had better reply first to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, which were a very clever attempt to get me to make a commitment now on a related subject. I simply say that I heard his comments and will study them very carefully. We shall give very careful consideration to his words, which I have no doubt were carefully chosen.
The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, makes a very good point by raising the issue of the relationship between the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill and this Bill. The remarks provide a further context for this debate. We shall have to think very carefully indeed about those implications.
No one is in any doubt that if the police service is to be opened up to non-British nationals, we must ensure that no one is appointed who cannot meet one of the fundamental requirements of a police officer—to be able to speak to members of the public and to be able to write effectively in English. I think that that is simply common sense—which is, I think, where the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, is coming from. I hope that my comments will reassure him and other noble Lords who raised the issue.
Our intentions on this have, I think, been clear from the beginning. We intend to include, among other qualifications for appointment, a requirement as to competence in oral and written English. That will be an absolute requirement, and our intention is to put it into regulations along with all the other qualifications that will have to be met before an officer can be appointed. I do not think that we can be any plainer or clearer than that; that is what we want to achieve. I think that everyone will agree on that requirement.
Similarly, there is no disagreement that police recruits should be resident in the UK and should have some knowledge of and ties with the UK. They should have a right to live in the UK either as EEA nationals or, if not, they should be free of all immigration restrictions. The point at issue is how best to achieve those requirements. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, proposes that we should tie qualification for
appointment as a police officer to the requirements for naturalisation. The requirements for naturalisation include a sufficient knowledge of English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic. In addition, the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill—which has sensibly been mentioned in this debate—will extend the requirements to include a sufficient knowledge of the UK.However, the naturalisation requirements also include requirements as to residence in the UK. People applying for naturalisation are required to have lived in the UK for five years prior to application with no more than 450 days' absence during that time and no more than 90 days' absence in the 12 months prior to application or, alternatively, for three years prior to application with no more than 270 days' absence during that three years and with no more than 70 days' absence in the previous 12 months.
The naturalisation requirements also specify that applicants must have been completely free of restrictions in the 12 months preceding the application and must not have been in breach of immigration laws during any of the past five years. Putting such requirements on to police recruits would be an administrative nightmare for the police service. It would require police forces not only to ensure that an applicant is living here free of conditions, as we propose, but to go back through five years of immigration records to check how long the applicant had been in the United Kingdom, to check the status of the applicant during each stage of that five years, to check long and short absences abroad and so on. At a time when we have argued against imposing administrative burdens on the police, we surely cannot impose such an administrative burden on them.
Nor should we forget the purpose of this clause, which is to open up the police service and to widen the recruitment pool. That is something that we are constantly urged to do; certainly the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, has fervently made that case and has congratulated us from time to time on the way in which we have set about that task. And many others have urged us to remove unnecessary barriers to recruitment. I believe that we have been successful in that endeavour. We would not want to replace one barrier with an even greater hurdle.
By setting a requirement that applicants must be able to communicate effectively with the public and in writing and by requiring applicants to be lawfully resident and free of restrictions we can ensure that applicants have a sufficient knowledge of English and have ties with the United Kingdom. Unrestricted residence in the United Kingdom is normally attracted after a number of years of conditional residence here. It may be one year, two years, four years or more before one can qualify for an indefinite stay. The length of time is not material. What is material is that those with an unrestricted stay will have lived here for some time and will have knowledge of our way of life.
In addition, foreign nationals and EU nationals—indeed, all candidates—will need to satisfy our rigorous vetting requirements. Someone who has lived
here for a short time, for instance, may be unlikely to be able to be vetted and would not therefore qualify for appointment. This combination of safeguards will be put in place and will need to be satisfied for a candidate of whatever nationality to qualify for appointment.The noble Lords, Lord Monson and Lord Renton, propose that we set out the residence requirement on the face of the Bill. With respect, I do not see that that adds anything to what we have proposed. The regulations will ensure that no one is appointed to the police service who is not resident in the United Kingdom or, in the case of members of other EEA states, has the right to live and work here.
The noble Lord, Lord Renton, proposes that we make the language requirement, the immigration status requirement and the power to reserve posts mandatory for the police forces of England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and otherwise leave this to the discretion of the other police forces covered by this clause.
It is our clear intention to provide requirements in respect of competence in English and immigration status for forces in England and Wales. We shall consult with colleagues in the devolved administrations to determine their intentions and will consider introducing an amendment in the other place. While we also need to be able to reserve certain posts, this may not be the case in every force covered by the clause; for example, the Royal Parks Police. There may well be others. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to impose a mandatory requirement to make provision for reserving posts. That element at least should remain discretionary. Given the clear commitment I have given to reflect further on Amendment No. 33, to pick up some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, and having heard all that I have said about the other requirements and the way in which we intend to manage those issues, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his important, well argued amendment which has regard to the operation of this legislation in the context of other legislation that is going through Parliament.
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