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Lord Monson: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down I hope that he will clarify a comment he made towards the end of his speech which I found rather alarming. He said on three occasions that recruits should be lawfully resident in the United Kingdom. However, towards the end of his speech he said that they should be resident in the United Kingdom or be members of other EEA states. Does that mean that Norwegians, Spaniards, Belgians or whatever could join the police force without having been resident in the United Kingdom at all?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, that is not our intention. I thought that I had made that plain. If I did not, I apologise to the noble Lord. We expect recruits to be normally resident in the United Kingdom. I thought that the explanation I gave made that clear.
Lord Renton: My Lords, the noble Lord kindly said that the Government would table an amendment in
another place. Is that intended to clarify subsection (4)? If so, it would be welcome as well as necessary, I suggest.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, one hopes that it would be based on the noble Lord's amendment which we shall take away and reflect on further. If the noble Lord is satisfied with that reply, it probably answers his question.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, it is interesting, to say the least, to note that the Government are reluctant to include within one Bill phraseology which would apply to another. In this instance it seems to me that the question of citizenship is less significant than the qualification to become a policeman who has power over citizens. I am a little disappointed that the Government apparently are not prepared to consider the possible translocation of the nationality naturalisation requirements into qualifications for joining the police force. We are in that perennial difficulty which we have on these occasions in that the Bill before us is dependent on regulations which we do not have before us. The Minister has gone a long way to relieve us of the concerns that have been expressed. However, I cannot say that his response was wholly satisfactory. But, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 not moved.]
Schedule 1 [Powers of the Secretary of State in relation to NCIS and NCS]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 35:
- Page 92, line 42, leave out paragraph 4.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for this amendment. On Report the House voted to accept our amendment to remove Clause 5 which conferred power to give directions to chief officers. Grouped with that amendment was an amendment to leave out paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 which concerns the power to give directions to the directors general of the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad respectively. Due to an oversight, that amendment was not moved at that stage. As a result there is an inconsistency in the Bill. The Minister kindly wrote to suggest that we might like to correct that oversight. I am immensely grateful to him for pointing that out. I do not think that any further discussion is necessary. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I am at liberty to disclose the contents of my brief which states "Accept".
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Powers exercisable by police civilians]:
Lord Dholakia moved Amendment No. 37:
- Page 128, line 17, leave out paragraph 2.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 37 to 58—with the exception of Amendment No. 52, which is separately grouped—are in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw. They relate to Schedule 4. I shall be brief.
The amendments deal with powers that are exercised by police civilians—the so-called community support officers. We do not believe that CSOs should have powers to detain. When the liberty of an individual is concerned, we should ensure that the power of detention is exercised by a constable. However, paragraph 2 of Schedule 4 goes much further. It involves the powers of police civilians to detain. Where that person has reason to believe that another person has committed a relevant offence in the relevant police area, he may require the other person to give him his name and address. We believe that such powers should be vested in a constable, not in a civilian who is exercising police powers. Nor should they use reasonable force to detain, as specified in paragraph 4. We stress that the exercise of any such powers that are conferred should be done in the company of and under the supervision of a police constable.
I do not intend to speak to each of the amendments in the group. Almost all of the amendments relate to the exercise of powers that are under the direction or supervision of a constable. I beg to move.
6 p.m.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I ask the Minister to deal with the question that I raised in Committee about whether paragraph 2 contains a power to arrest and detain. Or is that power merely to be found in paragraph 4?
As I understand it, paragraph 2 states that if the community support officer sees a relevant offence being committed, he has the right to request the man to give his name and address. If the man fails to do so or fails to comply with his request that he should remain with the officer or go with him to a police station, in so doing he is committing an offence. So far as I can see, that is different from having the power to detain or arrest that person. To find the power to arrest that person, one surely has to look to paragraph 4 of Schedule 4, which gives him the power to use reasonable force to detain a person during a period of 30 minutes. I may be wrong, but do the powers in paragraph 4 cover a wider area than those in paragraph 2? If so, is it deliberate that paragraph 2 does not appear to have a right to detain and arrest and merely makes it an offence if one refuses to respond to the individual's request? Is the power to arrest meant to operate in a more limited area?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle. I accept that Schedules 4 and 5 are pretty weighty and lengthy, although they essentially list a menu of powers. Before I respond in detail, I place on the record the fact that we believe that we have enough safeguards to ensure that the powers that we are discussing are used appropriately.
The thrust of the legislation is that chief constables must be satisfied that the person is suitable to carry out the relevant functions, capable of carrying them out and—I could say, "above all else"—is trained to carry out those functions. The Bill also provides that a designation cannot authorise or require conduct beyond the specified function. That ensures that the people concerned only exercise powers and perform functions for which they have been assessed as suitable and capable and have been fully trained. That is why I said, in Committee or on Report, that the Metropolitan Police will have three categories and train specifically for those categories.
The chief constable can place restrictions and conditions on a designation. That will ensure that chief officers can mould the extension of powers to fit the policing of an area. It is important to point out that that is a matter for the chief constable, not for the Government. For example, a community support officer may be restricted geographically to ensure that a particular area is focused on. As I said earlier, communities that have a community support officer will know that that officer cannot be moved to other areas at a later date. It will be up to chief officers to decide what restrictions, if any, should be placed on the designation. That arrangement will provide flexibility.
The clause explicitly covers legal responsibility for misconduct by designated persons. We have made it abundantly clear that the people designated, who are employed by the police authority and are under the direction and control of the chief constable, will come within the remit of the independent police complaints commission and will be obliged to have regard to the relevant PACE codes of conduct.
The menu of powers in Schedule 4 is strictly limited. Paragraph 2(3) contains the power to impose a requirement to wait with the community support officer for 30 minutes. Paragraph 4 contains the power to use reasonable force in making that person stay. That is where the connection is. However, the powers are strictly limited.
Police officers have a wide range of powers and duties which enable them to tackle all kinds of criminal behaviour and public safety functions. Community support officers, on the other hand, will have a much narrower role. We envisage their role to be increasing visibility, to be a uniformed presence on the streets and to address anti-social behaviour, public nuisance and disorder. That will free up the time of police officers. However, their precise range of functions will be decided locally from the menu of powers.
In order to have the maximum impact in communities, we believe that chief officers should have the option of giving appropriate and limited enforcement powers to community support officers. The community support officer will have a very important role in the community. If we prevent them from exercising the full extent of those powers, or make it clear that they can exercise them only in the presence of a constable, their effectiveness, frankly, will probably not be worth a candle. Moreover, no chief constable would seek to use the powers.
I do not believe that any of the powers in the Bill would let any chief officer give community support officers powers that were inappropriate. There are a massive number of checks and balances in the menu in Schedule 4.
If a chief officer has any concerns about a community support officer's ability to exercise the powers for which he has been trained, he will not issue a designation to that officer. If something goes wrong, he can withdraw or restrict the existing designation. The power is an operational one for the chief constable.
Amendments Nos. 45 to 47 would require investigating officers to be supervised and in the company of a constable when exercising a number of their powers of search and seizure. The amendments would undermine the whole purpose of having designated persons to free up police officers from doing certain tasks. What we are aiming for are properly trained investigating officers who can perform their functions without having to be constantly supervised or shadowed by a police constable.
Similarly, Amendments Nos. 48 to 58 are unnecessary. As noble Lords are aware, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act provides strong safeguards in relation to how people are treated in the police station. Many of the duties that we want properly trained officers to carry out can be performed only on the authorisation of a police officer. In many cases, that authorisation will come from an officer of at least the rank of inspector. For example, a custody officer will instruct a detention officer to undertake a non-intimate search of someone who is detained. An officer of at least inspector rank will have to authorise the search and examination to ascertain a person's identity. Where intimate samples and fingerprints are taken from a detained person without his consent, a senior officer must authorise their taking where he has reasonable grounds to believe that the sample or the fingerprint will tend to confirm or disprove, as the case may be, the person's involvement in a recordable offence.
I believe that satisfactory measures are contained in the paragraph, and I do not wish to go through each of them in turn. On the other hand, I shall be happy to do so because, if Amendment No. 37, which is the lead amendment in this group with Amendment No. 36 not having been moved, is carried—the others are not consequential amendments—I have no authority whatever from the Home Secretary to cave in. Therefore, noble Lords will be required to vote on each amendment. I make that absolutely clear. It is not a threat; I am simply explaining the situation. I do not want noble Lords to say later, "You didn't tell us". That is the situation.
Noble Lords should bear in mind the safeguards that we have given here and the authority of the chief constable to use this enabling power. I repeat: it will be the chief constable and not the Home Secretary who decides whether to use the power. Some chief constables will do so; others will not bother. In effect, as
I said earlier—obviously to no great effect—we shall have a pilot organised by the chief constables of this country. I believe that that is a suitable and adequate way to show that we have confidence in chief constables in terms of operational issues to operate these powers in a reasonable fashion. After all, it is all about getting a greater uniformed presence on the street.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, I hope that I answered his question in my comments about paragraph 2(3) containing the power to impose a requirement to wait with the community support officer for 30 minutes. Subparagraph (4) contains the power to use reasonable force in making the person stay.
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