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Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, is the noble Lord confirming that in order to find a power to arrest and detain one must look at paragraph 4 of the schedule and not paragraph 2? As he said, paragraph 2 sets out the ability to require an individual to give a name and to ask him to stay. Paragraph 4 gives the power to use reasonable force to detain the man against his will. That is obviously arrest and detention. Therefore, I am asking whether paragraphs 2 and 4 apply to the same type of offence or whether one is wider than the other. Is there a power to detain in some cases but not in others?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, there is a power to request the name and address of a person acting in an anti-social manner. Community support officers will have that power. There is a power to detain a person for up to 30 minutes pending the arrival of a constable or, indeed, to accompany that person to a police station with the person's agreement. There is a power to use reasonable force to detain a person or to prevent him from making off. Community support officers have those powers. There is no power of arrest there. The power of arrest lies with the constable. We must make that clear. We are dealing with the waiting period until the constable arrives because the constable will have the power of arrest.
In Committee, we deployed some of the practicalities in terms of the situations in which people might find themselves. However, as I made clear then, people would not be expected to be put into situations of danger above their training. That is important and it is a matter of common sense. Therefore, one person would not be asked to detain, for example, a gang of youths.
I do not know whether one power is wider than another in the way that the noble Lord suggested. Part 1 of Schedule 4 relates to community support officers. I must be careful as I do not want to confuse the extended police family with the accredited officers. Therefore, I shall not go into that matter because paragraph 4 is exclusive to community support officers. It gives them the power to detain a person who acts in an anti-social manner and who, having been asked for his name and address, refuses to give them. Such a power must be given, otherwise the whole process would fall apart.
The power enables the use of reasonable force to detain a person for 30 minutes and to prevent him from making off until a constable arrives. We hope that the constable would arrive within 30 minutes. I do not know whether one power is wider than another, but it is clear that the power to detain in paragraph 2 and, indeed, paragraph 4, which concerns the power to use reasonable force to detain a person, are both covered by several hundred words.
In terms of the noble Lord's question, I do not know which power would be wider. But the fact is that one gives the power to detain and the other gives the power to use reasonable force in order to stop a person making off while awaiting a constable. If I do not have that right, it is a little late to say at Third Reading that I shall write to the noble Lord—I must be realistic about this. But I shall certainly ensure that the matter is put right in the other place.
I am at risk of repeating myself but, if noble Lords wish me to do so, I can give an exposition of each detail of all the separate powers covered by the amendments. I repeat that if Amendment No. 37 is carried, I shall have to ask for the will of the House on all the other amendments.
6.15 p.m.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, the noble Lord is doing his best to explain but I am still confused. In relation to paragraph 2, where someone is alleged to have committed an offence, then the CSO, or whoever, can ask him to remain for a period not exceeding 30 minutes to await the arrival of a constable. Under paragraph 3, where a person is said to have been acting in an anti-social manner, he can be asked to give his name and address, but the paragraph does not contain a power equivalent to that in paragraph 2 to ask him to remain for 30 minutes pending the arrival of a constable. Nor does the power to detain in paragraph 4(3) contain any reference back to the failure of the person in the spotlight to have given a name and address or to remain for a period of 30 minutes while a police constable is fetched. It refers back only to paragraph 2.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, noble Lords must remember that this is a menu of powers for community support officers. They may have some powers and not others. Only chief constables can decide that; not the Home Secretary. The menu of powers is used according to local circumstances and according to the area—perhaps the geographical area—where the chief constable has decided that community support officers are needed. Some powers are used and not others.
It is not for me to speak for chief constables—far from it. But it is extremely unlikely that community support officers will be given every one of these powers. That will probably not be the case. With regard to London, it has already been made clear that the Metropolitan Police want three classifications of community support officers who will be specialists in the areas in which they operate. They will have the
powers, taken from the menu, to deal with a certain area, but they will not have other powers. It is not a package; it is a menu.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am sorry but the noble Lord has not dealt with the point that I made. Under paragraph 2, if a person fails to comply with the requirement, he can be asked to remain with the CSO for a period not exceeding 30 minutes while awaiting the arrival of a constable. However, under paragraph 3, if that person refuses to give his name and address after having acted in an anti-social manner, then there is no equivalent power for the CSO to ask him to remain on the spot for 30 minutes pending the arrival of a constable.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall try to get this right. So far as concerns the issue of anti-social behaviour, there is a power to ask a person to remain if the person does not give his name and address. Essentially, the first thing that the officer will do is to ask for an address in order to identify the person concerned. That is the effect of paragraph 3(2). In either case, paragraph 4 gives the power to use reasonable force to detain while awaiting a constable. I almost said "chief constable" but I do not believe we have yet reached the point where a chief constable is sent out on these matters.
So, there is the power to ask to remain if the person does not give his name and address. That is the effect of paragraph 3(2), but in either case, paragraph 4 gives the power to use reasonable force to detain until the constable arrives. It will be the constable who makes the arrest, not the community support officer.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. We have argued about these particular matters at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, and we agree to disagree in terms of the powers vested in some of the support officers. I could never accept that they will have the same standard of professionalism as police officers. There is a need for great caution to be exercised here. I do not know whether the Minister has ever worked out the implication of letting loose some of those people in the streets of some of our inner city areas. What started off as being the eyes and ears of the police we are now making into little police officers. I believe that that is unacceptable. The best way to resolve the argument is to test the opinion of the House.
6.21 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 37) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 168; Not-Contents, 121.
Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hanson, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Haslam, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young, B.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
[Amendments Nos. 38 to 51 not moved.]
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