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Lord Goodhart: My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a serious problem with persistent young offenders who commit other offences between the dates of arrest and conviction? Does she further agree that it is essential to provide more local authority secure accommodation so that those exceptional young offenders are not simply left on the streets to commit offences over and over again?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I certainly agree that persistent young offenders are a real concern. It is absolutely essential that appropriate accommodation is made available to them. The noble Lord will know that the Government have taken many initiatives to try to ensure that the issue of persistent offenders is addressed effectively.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, while congratulating the Minister on reducing the time between arrest and trial, I recall when people were arrested one evening and the following day were brought before the courts and dealt with, particularly if there was a guilty plea. Lawyers, of course, were not involved. Does she think that there may be an advantage in dealing with people without the involvement of lawyers?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I know that many are tempted to return to the days when there was no legal representation and people could not give voice
to their rights. But, thankfully, those days are gone. Now, the individuals who come before our courts can be assured that they will receive proper representation from proper, qualified lawyers, who are able to assist them—as is their right.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, while we are very encouraged by the figures that the Minister has given us in relation to the time between arrest and sentencing, will the Minister comment on the figures for detection rates? In London alone, the detection of crime has fallen from 25 per cent to just 17 per cent of all known crime.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am not able to comment on the noble Baroness's figures but they do not directly relate to the Question, which was about persistent young offenders. In relation to persistent young offenders, it is right that we have done much to reduce the amount of activity that those young people have engaged in, not least by reducing the rate of recidivism—or at least by attempting so to do.
Lord Acton: My Lords, can the Minister say whether there is any appreciable difference, in terms of the time involved, between girl persistent offenders and boy persistent offenders?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am not able to help my noble friend but I am more than happy to look at the figures to see whether there is any such difference. I shall write to my noble friend if any such indication is found.
Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, will the Minister comment on the fact that there appears to be a culture of adjournment in youth courts? That will obviously considerably delay matters.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I take this opportunity to wish my noble friend a very happy birthday.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I am very much aware that in the past there was an issue in relation to delay. That is why, on 21st May 1997, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor wrote personally to the chairmen of all youth panels emphasising that speed was essential in terms of confronting young people with the consequences of their wrongdoing. Speed is essential in terms of bearing down on the easy habit of re-offending. The youth courts, as we have seen, have responded very well. I emphasise that when any particular adjournment is necessary in the interests of justice, that is determined by the magistrates through the exercise of their own independent judicial discretion.
Young Offenders: Community Sentences
2.49 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they propose to offer to young offenders, as an alternative to community service, playing parts in special performances of Shakespeare's plays.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, we have introduced a range of community sentences for juveniles which provide individual programmes to tackle their offending behaviour and its causes. The arts can, and indeed do, play a valuable part. Youth offending teams across the country have successfully used music and drama, including Shakespeare, and other art forms. But we believe that these activities should remain available as part of an offending behaviour programme where appropriate and not become alternatives to them.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Is he aware that schemes involving Shakespeare are already proving themselves in the United States? But would the Government approve of such a project here while not, of course, supporting any idea that the quality of mercy blesses him that takes as well as him that gives, or that "Once more unto the breach" might refer to prison walls?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, being only a simple engineer, and at the risk of upsetting people, I have to say that The Merchant of Venice was the only piece of Shakespeare penance that I ever did at my old school, Handsworth Technical College. Therefore, there is a big gap in my cultural life, and I mean that.
However, I fully accept what the noble Lord said. This morning I asked my officials where they believed the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, was coming from. They told me that there had been a most interesting article in The Times of 15th April, which I read, giving information about what is happening in America. The article was incredibly positive and informative, and we shall certainly consider the issues that it raised. We are using art and sport, and not only in relation to those who have offended. It is very important that those who do not offend do not believe that they are being kept out of these programmes. That would send the wrong signals. The Youth Justice Board has a large programme, and youth offending teams across the country are making good use of such material.
This morning, I also discovered that there is such a thing as a Henry V leadership programme, which I understand is run by someone by the name of "Olivier". Indeed, Home Office officials have been sent on it.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is there not one common theme in both the Question and the Answer: much ado about nothing?
Lord Addington: My Lords, if we are to use any form of art therapy or artistic or cultural activity in relation
to young offenders, does the Minister agree that it is important to remember that good playwrights have existed in this country since the 17th century?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, indeed, they have. However, the nature of Shakespeare's language and the way in which people are able to describe events and convey violence through language rather than physically have proved to be beneficial both here and in the United States. Again, I refer noble Lords to the important piece in The Times. I believe it is important that people use both modern and what one might call "less modern" initiatives in both sport and art.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, is the Minister aware that a number of such initiatives are already taking place in prisons? For example, last summer Winchester Prison put on a most brilliant opera—"The Threepenny Opera".
Lord Rooker: My Lords, yes, indeed. One arts-based initiative—the London Shakespeare Workout—uses the language and themes of Shakespeare with professional theatrical performers to engage inmates, education staff and prison officers. Therefore, an enormous amount of such work is taking place now. It is not new. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, has raised an important issue. It is not all about clamping people down; it is about opening people up and encouraging them to be positive, whether they have offended or not. This is an important issue to have been raised in the House.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I am delighted that the Minister mentioned those who have not offended. Does he believe that enough is being done to promote youth services in this country? It is most important that young people partake in positive activities, but there has been a considerable run-down of youth activities, largely by local authorities.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Baroness is right. I highlight, for example, the Youth Justice Board. Its Splash schemes have been run in the school holidays since the summer of 2000. They have included more than 200 projects and have provided sports and arts activities for 20,000 13 to 17 year-olds in deprived areas of the country over a five-week period. In the scheme's first year, 2000, the total crime rate fell by 6 per cent in those areas compared with a national rise of 3.8 per cent. Therefore, an enormous amount of work is being done, and I do not believe that one should use such Questions simply to take a knock at local government.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the introduction of the community service order, which, I am happy to say, was introduced by a Conservative government in 1972, was one of the most imaginative and important changes to take place in penal policy? Faced today with a situation, such as we were faced with in 1971, of
overcrowding in prisons, will the Minister say what steps this Government are taking to consider alternatives to prison?
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