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Baroness Amos: My Lords, the initiative does not come under the UN. This was suggested by the United Kingdom some time ago. It was re-discussed recently and agreed by ourselves and by the United States. We
needed to move very quickly, which is why the United Kingdom and the United States have agreed to take this forward. It is not intended as a permanent UK/US initiative. We see it very much as a first step in terms of taking matters forward and as a bridge, as it were—a term used by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. As I said, the wardens will not be armed; they will not come under the umbrella of the Royal Military Police.
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, I thank Her Majesty's Government for their involvement in efforts to find a way to help to achieve peace so that both sides and their families and their children will not walk in fear, as they do today.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, is correct. I was in Jenin on Saturday. Perhaps I may ask my noble friend two or three questions arising from that visit. First, is she aware that the Israeli Government are concerned about the terms of reference of the committee and its membership, as various leaders of that government told me, but that if that is settled, as they hope it will be, they indeed welcome the inquiry. They all say, without exception—they and the soldiers who were there, whom I met, and their leaders whom I met—that they have absolutely nothing to hide, and that it is a very complex situation.
Finally, has my noble friend been told by the United Nations and UNRWA, who were my hosts, what they told me, namely: that they have interviewed some 1,500 people from the camp; that they are satisfied that the number of deaths is 54 with some 18 people missing—most of them are probably either in hospitals or in prisons; and that 23 Israelis were killed in what was a fierce battle in Jenin? Jenin is regarded by the Israelis as a terrorist centre and a base for the suicide bombers, the results of whose operations I also saw. In view of that and of what the United Nations has said, does the Minister accept that the alleged massacre is a total myth, propagated by Palestinians and their allies and by the media, and that it certainly is untrue?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am aware that the Israeli Government have expressed concerns about the terms of reference of the committee and its membership. As I understand it, they are engaged in discussions with the UN Secretary-General. Our view remains that a fact-finding mission in Jenin is the best way of dealing with the differing reports coming out of the town. My noble friend mentioned figures that he was given when in Jenin. We have been given a number of different facts and figures from different people, and that is why we want the fact-finding mission to go in as quickly as possible. We continue to believe that the membership that has been announced for that mission represents a distinguished group of internationally recognised and well-respected individuals, as I said in the Statement.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I found it not only a positive Statement, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, but
also a balanced one. I am afraid that balance as a commodity is in short supply in many of the debates on the Middle East, especially in some quarters of our media.I speak as someone who has spent a great part of his professional life fighting terrorism. I confess to a prejudice: I loathe terrorism in any form. I loathe it in the form that it is taking in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict at the moment, in which innocent civilians, including five year-old children, are the subject of targeted violence and murder. It seems to me that those who speak of the brutality of the Israelis—as one noble Lord spoke the other day in your Lordships' House—have to answer why they use that kind of expression. Do they believe that Israel has the right to exist within secure borders? If they do, surely Israel has the right to mount operations in its self-defence.
We all know—I will be the first to admit—that there have been excesses in the Israeli response. Of course, as noble Lords have said, there have been such policies as the settlement policy, which clearly is unacceptable and provocative and must be reversed as soon as possible. If people believe that Israel has a right to self-defence, the kind of unbalanced attitude that many people have expressed to the conflict must be reconsidered.
Lord Grocott: My Lords, perhaps I can respectfully remind the noble Lord that many noble Lords want to ask questions and only 20 minutes is allowed for Back-Benchers' questions.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I am aware of the 20-minute rule and I shall be as brief as I can. I shall bring my remarks to a close. Israel perceives that it is under threat. This House has a deserved reputation for reasoned debate, objective judgments and analysis of international problems. Although this may sound like the worst of all clichés, there are two sides to this terrible conflict. No service is done to truth or to peace to pretend that there is only one.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, in that a balanced approach is absolutely critical. We all know that discussions and debate about what is happening in the Middle East brings out deep emotions on both sides. There are differences that are deep-rooted and historical. That is why we believe that it is so important to find the means and mechanisms to continue dialogue and discussion. As I said earlier, it is the only way in which we can reach any kind of peaceful solution. A military solution is not the way, so we shall continue to listen to both sides. We shall continue to work with both sides and to bring pressure to bear on them and we shall tell each side when we believe that it is acting in a way that is disproportionate and excessive.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that it is vitally important to recognise that time is of the essence in starting meaningful talks? There is a great temptation to allocate blame in the interests of
achieving a meaningful dialogue. I believe it is absurd to talk about achieving a solution to the issue of settlements now. It should be discussed but not as a precondition for the dialogue that my noble friend and the Government have initiated. Would my noble friend also accept that it is important to avoid the temptation that exists of allocating blame straightaway, whether to Israeli or Arab? The dialogue should be started from a clear basis.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. Time is of the essence. We have been careful not to allocate blame when there has not been the evidence to support it. We have sought to be robust in our engagement with both sides and to try to ensure that UN Security Council resolutions that have been passed are adhered to. But I recognise that there is also frustration on both sides because we shall not start with a blank sheet of paper. We are dealing with a complex set of issues about which there has been dialogue and discussion over many years. Part of the reason that frustration is felt by many is because there are times when we seem to come extremely close to an agreement, and then it fades. Therefore, I agree with my noble friend that it is important not to allocate blame, but to seek to work together in a way which is meaningful and positive.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for the Statement and support the decision taken by the Government. However, will the noble Baroness redouble the efforts of our Government to persuade the Israeli Government that this unseemly haggling over the fact-finding mission to Jenin is doing nobody damage but themselves? Will she also remind them that Israel's reputation never sank lower than in 1990 when it declined to admit a fact-finding mission after the killing of a number of unarmed Palestinians on the Temple Mount?
I hope that the efforts of persuasion can be successful because I am afraid that the Government of Israel are doing nobody harm but themselves. Does the noble Baroness agree that it is a priority to get an overall peace negotiation under way and that it will be necessary, if that process is to be sustainable, that it is not interrupted every time a terrorist atrocity is committed; otherwise we are simply handing the agenda over to the men of violence? That is what has happened for the past year. They will not desist if they think that each time they create an atrocity they can stop the peace process in its tracks, and they believe that worst is best.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that the fact-finding mission must go in, and go in quickly. That point was made by my right honourable friends the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and others to the Israeli Government.
I agree with the noble Lord also that it is important not only to get the peace negotiations under way, but also to ensure that they are sustained over a period of time and not interrupted. It is a matter of both sides
being brave in taking that step. We know from our experience in Northern Ireland that taking that step and being brave is probably the single most important factor in terms of obtaining a longer-term peace. We all hope that that will happen in the Middle East.
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