House of Lords
Wednesday, 1st May 2002.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwark.
Royal Assent
The Lord Chancellor (Lord Irvine of Lairg): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:
Football (Disorder) (Amendment) Act, Electoral Fraud (Northern Ireland) Act, National Heritage Act, Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act, Greenham and Crookham Commons Act.
Chinook ZD576
Lord Chalfont asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they expect to provide a response to the report of the Select Committee on the Chinook ZD576 accident before the Summer Recess.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Government have said that they intend to respond to the Select Committee's report, which was published on 5th February 2002, before the six months allowed for responses to such reports have elapsed. That remains our intention. Moreover, I hope that it will be possible to publish our reply and debate the issue in your Lordships' House before the Summer Recess.
Lord Chalfont: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging reply. However, in the light of the fact that correspondents' letters addressed to the Government on this matter are being answered by the Air Staff secretariat, can he give the House an assurance that, before the response arrives in the House, Ministers, and not only officials, will have read the Select Committee's report and that they will not simply be relying on an Air Staff briefing?
Lord Bach: My Lords, I can reassure the noble Lord that all Ministers in the Ministry of Defence have read the Select Committee's report. But that will not preclude us from listening to the advice of our officials before final decisions are taken. I know that the noble Lord will agree that that is the best way to proceed, not least because of the time that he spent as a distinguished Minister in the MoD some years ago.
Lord Vivian: My Lords, does the Minister agree that staff at Boscombe Down reported to the MoD that they could not recommend controller aircraft release
for the Chinook Mk2 owing to the unquantifiable risk associated with the unverifiable nature of the FADEC software, and does he agree that they recommended that it be rewritten? Can the Minister say now, or in the future response to which he has just referred, whether the software has been rewritten and independently verified and who authorised the return of those aircraft to operational service against the advice of Boscombe Down?
Lord Bach: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, whose questions I always listen to with enormous interest, the answer to his question will be very much a matter for this House when we come to debate the report. I am conscious that today the Question is about the timetable. This Question should not be an excuse for a dress rehearsal for a debate that the House will have.
Deaf-blind Children
2.39 p.m.
Lord Dormand of Easington asked Her Majesty's Government:
- How many deaf-blind children there are in the United Kingdom, what educational provision is made for them and what is the estimated cost of such provision.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Skills (Baroness Ashton of Upholland): My Lords, the Government do not collect information about numbers of pupils with special educational needs categorised by disability or learning difficulty. Sense, the National Deafblind and Rubella Association, estimates that about 3.1 in 10,000 children are deaf-blind. Responsibility for making provision for deaf-blind children rests in the first instance with local education authorities and schools. The type and cost of provision will depend on each child's individual needs.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, my noble friend's Answer is a little disappointing. On a serious issue such as this, I should have thought that it was absolutely basic to have statistics on what is happening. Does my noble friend agree that dealing with deaf-blind children is probably the most difficult problem faced by parents and carers? Little research appears to have been carried out on this handicap. Can my noble friend comment on that and, in particular, on the education of deaf-blind children? Finally, is my noble friend aware of the valuable work being done by interveners who visit children in their own homes? Can she say whether any government assistance is available for that work?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend was disappointed. I did try to provide some figures. If it would assist the House, I can translate those into an estimation by Sense that there are 4,200 children under the age of 18 in the UK out of
a population of approximately 23,000 people in the UK who are deaf-blind. According to information collected by the Welsh Assembly, as of January 2001 there were 60 pupils with statements of SEN whose main need arose from a hearing and visual impairment. Scotland is also collecting information: 0.4 per cent of children with a record of need in primary schools and 0.1 per cent in secondary schools had dual sensory impairment. I hope that that reassures my noble friend that I do, in fact, have information.I also have information about reports which have been recently published by Sense. One is entitled, Breaking Out; another is entitled, Reach Out. We are looking very carefully at those reports, which focus on early intervention for children who are deaf-blind. We are working in that area and opening up the community for deaf-blind children and young people, particularly in after-school and out-of-school activities. We are considering those issues and take them very seriously.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, assuming that the main means of communication of deaf-blind children is touch signals, are there enough teachers in this specialisation or in any satisfactory alternative means? Are enough teachers being trained?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, teachers of deaf-blind and deaf or blind pupils must acquire an additional qualification. That is a mandatory qualification. The Teacher Training Agency has been reviewing that and has drawn up new specifications against which training providers can bid. Currently, eight institutions offer the mandatory qualification provision; two of them deal with deaf-blind children: Whitefield School at Kingston University and the University of Birmingham.
In addition, we should ensure that those who work in a support capacity with teachers are able to have training on special educational needs and the needs of children. The noble Lord makes an important point: such children have particular difficulties. My noble friend referred to the role of interveners, which is a crucial part of enabling them to communicate.
Baroness Warnock: My Lords, does the Minister agree that this disability demonstrates the inadequacy—I must take some responsibility—of lumping all children with disabilities together under the category of children with special needs? Does she agree that some children's disabilities are so profound that they require "special" special provision and that that group of children stands out as the most difficult to be put together with other children with less severe disabilities?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point. We believe that the time has come to obtain information about the different special educational needs of the different categories of children in our schools, so that we can
adjust the provision and ensure that it is appropriate and adequate. Currently, we are working with officials from the Department of Health to ensure that we have similar categorisation for reasons that I am sure will be clear to your Lordships.It is true that for some children being educated in a mainstream school is inappropriate as we are not thereby able to fulfil their needs. That is why special schools remain an important part of educational provision and why we are working closely with special schools to ensure that in the future their role is well understood.
Noble Lords will perhaps not be surprised that the number of children in special schools remains the same, but the kinds of disability or special educational needs that the children have are increasingly complex. Therefore, teaching and educational provision of the highest order are required. It is also important that those children who can be educated and wish to be educated in mainstream schooling are allowed to do so.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, how can the Government say, on the one hand, that services for children with special educational needs are adequate but, on the other hand, admit that they do not have the specific information about the particular special educational needs of different categories of children?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the important fact, as the noble Baroness is aware, is that we have schools that are working closely with these children. In the main, we delegate the money to the schools: £1.9 billion for special educational needs in 2001-02. We recognise that we have in our teaching profession real expertise of working with children with special educational needs which we want to ensure is shared. We have to be more sophisticated as we develop our inclusion agenda. That is precisely what we shall do.
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