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Baroness Lockwood: My Lords, perhaps I can pick up a point made by my noble friend Lord Peston in an earlier amendment. Although the amendments in this series have been taken separately, there is a continuing theme; that is, what is "innovation"? What comes within the scope of the Act in the sense of when does permission have to be obtained from the department and when can an innovation be initiated by a school on its own?

It has taken us three amendments to tease out the fact contained in one of the amendments; that is, that permission has to be obtained from the department if,

"organisation of the school day, week and year",

is to be altered. If it takes this House that amount of probing, how are schools to understand exactly what they can and cannot do? There will have to be some detailed guidance provided for schools to know just how they can operate under the Bill.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, prompts me to return to the original point of my speech; namely, the mystery of what comprises "innovation" and indeed what stimulated the Government to bring forward this chapter of clauses.

In reply to an earlier amendment the Minister said that she had no "preconceived ideas" as to what might come forward from schools and other qualifying bodies as proposals for innovation. Yet quite clearly behind these clauses there is a conviction on the part of the Government that there is a wealth of ideas out there somewhere ready to be brought forward.

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Otherwise why were these clauses introduced into this legislation with so much importance being attached to them?

I press the Minister again, at the end of these three noble attempts to elicit some form of innovation that requires statutory relaxation, to explain this chapter of the Bill more clearly. I shall certainly feel a great deal happier if I have some kind of justification from the Government as to why Clause 1 was introduced at all. Surely the Government have expectations and must have examples of the sort of innovative ideas that are currently prevented because of statutory restraints.

5.45 p.m.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, hit upon an important phrase in this context when he talked about the "wealth of ideas". All noble Lords recognise that within our schools system there has indeed been a wealth of ideas which enabled schools to develop and become individual. I believe that all schools have an individual nature in the way that they educate their children which is to be welcomed and enhanced.

But when we talk to schools and look at the history of legislation we find examples where schools could have done things differently that would have been better for their children. I accept that the examples I gave earlier were retrospective—involving education of under-fives and so forth—but they were projects which schools had thought of and would have liked to introduce earlier. So we are all in the same place in saying that schools should be the innovators—they understand what is happening and have ideas—and the department should be the facilitator. We are simply exploring that premise in more detail.

I too am grateful to my noble friends Lady David and Lord Peston for taking us through some examples. There is no need to list them. I am not trying to prevent a discussion on this. But what I shall seek to do between now and the next stage of the Bill is to spell out in a little more detail, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, did at the beginning of this debate, some of the innovations that schools are currently able to put into practice. I shall attempt to find something which I can lay in the Library of the House to help us in our discussions and deliberations.

My noble friend Lady David mentioned specifically the role of parents in schools. We all recognise and welcome parents' involvement in schools. Indeed, in looking at some of our most disadvantaged young people, we find it is crucial to involve parents in a supportive way to work with the schools and with those children from an early age. At the risk of diverting to another topic, it is the essence of Sure Start; it is about trying to involve parents early. I wish to see that translated throughout the school years so that parents are involved. Parents may or may not be able to go into schools and support the children in a specific way. But we want them to make a commitment to the school, to the child's education and to work in partnership with the school to ensure that their children obtain the best possible education from the school and support the school in achieving that.

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So parental involvement is extremely important. I cannot imagine therefore a situation where a reduction of parental involvement could possibly raise standards. That is incomprehensible. I know that my noble friend was probing that point deliberately. But I cannot think of a situation where less parental involvement in schools would be an advantage to the school and an advantage in the raising of standards. I cannot envisage a situation where that might happen.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I do not believe anybody was arguing—certainly not the noble Baroness, Lady David—that there might be a reduction of the involvement of parents. The idea was the positive involvement of parents. I agree with the Minister that it is inconceivable that there is in existence any piece of legislation from which exemption would need to be granted in order to promote, encourage and involve parents in the education of their children.

But perhaps I can press the noble Baroness on something she said. The noble Baroness admitted that her examples were from a long time ago. That is true. As I said in my speech, schools working with FE and HE has been going on for a long time and, as far as I know, it has not been against the law to do so. But we are talking about this set of Ministers, this Secretary of State and the noble Baroness herself who is part of the educational team who appear to be saying that they have been pressed by teachers on their visits about the frustration of inhibitions on them to innovate because of legislation. We have asked time and again for examples of that and the noble Baroness has not been able to give them.

So what have all those teachers been saying to the noble Baroness and her colleagues in the department that hinted that there are statutes in place which prevent them from innovating in the classroom?

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may supplement what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said. We return to the essential point: trying to find out what is innovative. We have explored various ideas, but the only one that the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, has come up with is the organisation of the school week. Yet, as I understand it, there is flexibility. She said that as long as there is a break, the school day can be varied. There must be two sessions with a break in the middle, but otherwise schools do not need statutory exemption. I suppose that they would if they ran one session a day, but provided that there is a break in the middle, they can run a short day.

We have explored many ideas. If I may say so, your Lordships' House is a creative place, and we have been trying hard to think of ideas. But we have been unable to come up with anything that is not already covered in legislation.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I gave a second example in the Bill: the issue of childcare. Schools have been saying that one way in which they want to engage with families—especially in the areas of highest disadvantage—is to be able to provide within the

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school childcare facilities run not by teachers but by organisations from either the private or voluntary sectors. That would enable children and families to come into the school and participate in it. That is an example. We shall later discuss the part of the Bill that provides for that.

I recognise that I have created some difficulties for the Committee. We are considering areas in which we are trying to enable schools to think about ideas and develop them. Members of the Committee have rightly said that a great deal of innovation can take place. We have focused on the example of the school day. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, is right, although there is guidance governing how changes can be made to ensure that parents are kept informed, and so on. That is one example. Before we return to the issue, I shall try to find more examples to satisfy the Committee.

I thought that I had answered the specific question asked by my noble friend Lady David: might we support reducing the level of parental involvement? I was doing nothing other than trying to answer what I thought was her question. I take on board the points made by the Committee and shall of course reflect on them.

Baroness David: I thank Members of the Committee for their contributions to this short debate. I have received an answer to my question and I find it reassuring. I am delighted that my noble friend thinks that the more families are involved in school the better for the school and the families. We have got a little from these three amendments—we have got a little further—although the position is not altogether satisfactory. I thank my noble friend for her reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Northbourne moved Amendment No. 13:

Page 1, line 21, at end insert "but excluding section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988 (c. 40) (duties with respect to the curriculum) and section 2 of the Education (Schools) Act 1992 (c. 38) (functions of the Chief Inspector for England)"

The noble Lord said: The Bill is scary, especially in Clause 2. The noble Baroness has told us with great charm exactly what the Secretary of State plans to do. My concern is with what the Bill allows a future Secretary of State to do. It is a question not of the Government's intention but of the actual words in the Bill. I must add that it is not the first time that I have said that in the context of an education Bill.

I tabled the amendment because I am in love with Section 1 of the Education Reform Act 1988. As the Committee will remember, it states:

"The curriculum for a maintained school satisfies the requirements of this section if it is a balanced and broadly based curriculum which . . . promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of the pupils at the school and of society; and . . . prepares such pupils for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of adult life".

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