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Lord Dormand of Easington: I strongly support the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Peston. I have made my views known during both terms of office of this Government, in this Chamber and in writing. All that we are told is that they have to take into consideration the views of parents. That is the official answer, and it is difficult to argue against that.

My question, then, is: how do we assess the views of parents? Do we take votes in the area of a school? Do we write more letters? Do we canvass? What is the system whereby we come to what some would say is the answer to the problem posed by my noble friend?

An argument to which I subscribe, although my noble friend may not, is that if you feel as we feel, and as we have argued for many years, that comprehensive education is the best system of secondary education, then, frankly, we do it. If there is opposition—as there will be—then we have to use the argument and cite the experience to show that what we are saying and doing is right. I only hope that we shall have a longer and more sensible debate on this very important and central issue.

6.45 p.m.

Baroness Blatch: I suddenly like this Bill! I have no philosophical hang-up about selection on the basis of ability. I say to those noble Lords who have supported the amendment, including those on the Liberal Democrat Benches: the Government have left you all behind. We are all Tories now on this issue. There is a great deal of selection in the system. If she makes reference to the matter in replying, the noble Baroness will be able to catalogue the areas in the system where, even since this Government came to power, modes of selection have been introduced.

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I remember an incredible debate—which I may later be able to find in Hansard—that took place when we attempted to elicit from the Government their definition of "ability" and "aptitude". It would qualify for the Wooden Spoon Award from the Plain English Society. It was pure gobbledegook. It took a long time, and the debate was extremely amusing, but at the end of the day we were none the wiser.

Perhaps I may draw to the attention of our Liberal Democrat friends the intervention that took place during the speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. When she claimed to be against selection on the basis of ability, she was reminded that Liberal Democrats up and down the land were walking in the streets to defend their local grammar schools from being destroyed by the balloting system put in place by this Government. The answer was: "Well, our national policy is one thing, but our local policy is another". All I can say is: if you have a policy, you have a policy. As I say, in principle, I have no objection whatever and no philosophical hang-up.

Teaching children—all children—according to their abilities and aptitudes is what education should be about. Reference has been made to children with special educational needs. It is just as important to meet their needs as it is to meet the needs of those who are highly able.

I know that the Minister will tell us how much the Government are doing to meet the needs of the highly able. But they are being selected for that. Whether they are being selected under the same roof, in a comprehensive school, or whether they are being selected for an academic "hot house" type education in Hills Road or even in some of our grammar schools up and down the land makes no odds. It is important that children are taught and that the education provided is consistent with their abilities and aptitudes.

Being against selection, as the Government claim to be—although in practice they have put quite a lot of it in place—is a mean-spirited policy of envy. We must be thankful for small mercies: the limited amount of selection that was in place when the Government took office is still in place.

The noble Lord, Lord Peston, in confessional mode, talked about his own children going to comprehensive school. I shall be equally confessional and say that my children did too. My children have done exceptionally well. The debate is not about whether you like or do not like comprehensive education. I believe that it has its place in the system. We have a great deal of choice in the education system. There are some excellent comprehensive schools; there are some poor ones. There are some excellent private schools; there are some poor ones. There are some excellent grammar schools; and there are some grammar schools that are not performing as well as they might. The debate is not about the structure of a school; it is about meeting the needs of children.

We had a debate in this House on higher education last night and a previous debate on the subject about a week ago. One of the key issues that emerged was how we should prepare young people for higher

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education. There was agreement on all sides, including on the Government Benches, that another key issue was how we could help children from poorer families to be fully prepared at school level to be qualified for entrance into higher education. I passionately support that idea. But you cannot do that if you turn your back on selection on the grounds of ability.

The Government's determination to deny selection on the grounds of ability makes the policy of inclusion an absolute sham. As I said, bright children from poorer homes will be the losers. It is for them that we should be concerned. When the Government came to office, such children were helped—by the assisted places scheme, by places in independent schools and by places in grammar schools. Then the pernicious system of local balloting was introduced to see whether local pressure groups could get rid of grammar schools. Over every grammar school in the country hangs the sword of Damocles; namely, the fear that signatures will be gathered for a petition in the balloting system that will determine its future. That need not happen only once; it can happen year on year, affecting the children in those schools and sapping the energies of parents and staff, who have to drop what they are doing in order to fend off the possible curtailment of their future.

I hope that the amendment introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will not be supported and that the Liberal Democrats will not enter the Lobby with him at a later stage. I hope that the Minister—who I believe is as concerned about bright children from poor homes as we all are—will at least say that there is a place in education for selecting children on the basis of aptitude and ability.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I had not intended to intervene in this debate. However, I have been moved to do so by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch.

My great regret is that, so far as concerns new Labour, we are all Tories now. The point is that they have not done as the noble Lord, Lord Peston, has suggested and stood up for the comprehensive principle. Yes, it was 40 years ago, as the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, said. For the past 40 years I have been fighting for the comprehensive system. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, put it very well: at 11, you cannot choose. I agree with him: 15 or 16 is the right age. That is when young people have some idea of their own abilities and know where they want to go.

We debated this matter yesterday. I cannot accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said about—

Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: If the Germans can select at 14 with no problem of conflict between classes, why can we not do that in England?

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: That relates partly to the class system in this country. I think that 14, 15 or 16 are much better ages for selecting.

I cannot accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said about preparation for universities. Across the board, good comprehensive schools are preparing

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young people for university and they are doing splendidly. Yesterday I was arguing the case for having masters degrees for plumbers. We need a broad range. Schools such as the sixth-form colleges in Cambridge are doing precisely that and are preparing our young people splendidly to go forward.

Baroness Blatch: I know how passionate the noble Baroness is about plumbers. Does she agree that, while we need first-class plumbers, electricians, doctors, dentists and nurses, we also need the academic élite? We need bright academic people. We know from what teachers say about the very bright children in our nursery schools, our primary schools and our secondary schools that unless they can be selected at some time and given an education commensurate with their particular talents, we are failing those children.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I think that the noble Baroness would also accept—because I think that this applies to both our own children—that all the evidence shows that bright children do very well at comprehensive schools and many of them go forward to become very bright academics.

Lord Turnberg: I hesitate to speak in this debate, because it is clearly not my area. I am prompted to do so because there is clearly some confusion about the difference between education and training. Education has to be available to all, irrespective of ability. Training is for people who want to take advantage of their particular aptitudes. Training comes rather later, after a person has been educated to the best of their capacity. That is why I support the amendment.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This has been an interesting debate. I am interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about rock musicians. As a great fan of "Pop Idol", including, I confess, voting at the end—

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