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Lord Dearing: I am sorry that we are not going to have the debate about the Beckhams, the Jaggers and the Isambard Kingdom Brunels. How do we best respond to the needs of children and young children? It is quite an important issue. If we cannot afford to provide excellence in all our schools for all these different aptitudes, there is an argument for saying—as the Government are doing—let us have some schools that are particularly well equipped in, for example, sport, engineering, languages or information technology, and reserve a modest proportion of those places for the young Beckhams and the young Jaggers.

I do not think that that is antagonistic to the comprehensive principle. It seems to be saying, as sensibly as one can, "We have limited resources and cannot provide the best in all subjects in all our schools. So let us go for good standards everywhere, but, across the city as a whole, provide centres of excellence in particular areas". However, we shall hear more of that.

Although we shall have the debate on faith schools on another day, I should like to make a couple of points now. Amendment No. 19 would, as I read it, fossilise the position. However, society is not static. A small city or big town, for example, might have a complete reorganisation of its schools. Following consultation with parents and others, it may decide, as I know one city has, to close a church school. Another aspect of the reorganisation, however, may be to expand another school and provide places that are distinctively for children from faith homes. Amendment No. 19 would stop that desirable reorganisation of provision in such places.

I should also hope that we are a tolerant society in which we are willing to respond to the wishes of parents and local communities. Specifically, however, and as an advocate of church schools in particular circumstances, I would not want these powers to be used to circumvent the procedures which exist to ensure that we are truly meeting the needs and wishes of society. I would not want the Secretary of State to say, "No, we shall ignore the school's organisation committee, the process by which all proposals must go forward and be considered, and an objective of reaching unanimity". I would not want the Secretary of State to short-circuit that. I would therefore be with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in not wanting to see these powers used to circumvent existing procedures.

Lord Rix: Is the noble Lord, Lord Peston, satisfied that the wording of Amendment No. 19 does not

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provide yet another excuse for excluding pupils with special educational needs with a particular aptitude for a particular subject?

Lord Brennan: I intervene only briefly, first to declare an interest that I did not expect to declare: I am the president of the Catholic Union of Great Britain. In speaking to a previous amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, remarked on the historical absurdity suggesting that Catholics are always wrong. For my brethren in the faith generally and for my fellow Peers of this faith, I reassure him and the House that we contribute matters that do not show that that absurdity is an absurdity.

Secondly, and much more importantly, I speak because the question of faith schools is of particular importance, as the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, just indicated. I admire the spirit in which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, moved the amendment. His enthusiasm is remarkable. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will match that enthusiasm with the measure of care and discretion with which she clarifies the Government's position about safeguarding faith schools. Just as the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, was an absurdity, it is equally an absurdity to suggest that a faith school is not capable of innovation in education.

Baroness Blatch: I support the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. It is a pity that we are not having a longer debate on some of these issues. I fully expect the Minister to support strongly the existence of faith schools and even the encouragement of more. I admire the tenacity and the good humour with which the noble Lord, Lord Peston, always enters into these debates. I have enjoyed engaging in debate with the noble Lord over a number of years. We entered this House on the same List and therefore we are approaching the same anniversary. The Minister gave the noble Lord reasonable assurances on the previous amendment. However, I hope and believe that that will not be the case as regards the amendment that we are at present discussing.

It is right that children of families of a particular faith should be allowed to be selected for schools that support that faith. There is now a growth in the number of ecumenical schools. In Cambridge a Catholic and an Anglican school have been established and are working well. I hope that that process will be encouraged.

I believe that specialist schools have worked well. The Government accepted them and have expanded their number. They have a policy aim to continue to expand that number. I believe that a later amendment will seek to expand the number of subjects that are offered. I refer to arts, music, sport, science and technology and languages. A moment ago I reminisced about various young people who had received a specialist education before we had state specialist schools. As a councillor in Cambridgeshire I helped a talented young violinist when my colleagues on the local authority said that his needs could be met in any of the local schools in Cambridgeshire. There was no

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doubt that many of those schools had strong music departments. Cambridgeshire prides itself on its good schools. However, the young boy went to Cheetham's school and was successful. The right decision was taken in that case. I am delighted that he went to that school. He enjoyed the specialist education which he received there.

Languages, technology and science have progressed a great deal through innovation—the Clause 2 issue—in our city technology colleges which gave birth to the specialist colleges which I support. There is a strong argument for allowing selection on grounds of academic ability but certainly on grounds of faith and aptitude for specialist subjects. I do not think that I know of a school that selects on the basis of social class. I hope that such a school does not exist. I would not support that as the only criterion for selection. Certainly, we all know areas of the country where groups of people can afford to move to a particular area where schools have a good reputation. However, that is not a case of schools selecting pupils on the basis of social class but of parents being able to afford to move to an area with a school that has a good reputation. Let us make no mistake: if selection is denied, people will find ways to get their children in the best schools. However, that applies only to those who can afford to take certain action. Governments of any political persuasion should do what they can to support the children of families who cannot afford to move to an area with schools that would provide an education to meet the abilities and aptitudes of their children.

Baroness Walmsley: As we shall debate faith schools later I do not intend to address them at the moment. However, I wish to comment on the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, on selection by aptitude, even if we all understand what that means.

When the Bill was debated in another place my honourable friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough encouraged the Government not only to allow all schools to be specialist schools but also to take away the right to select 10 per cent of students by aptitude partly because of the difficulty of knowing what that means but also because this is an area where the Government have already innovated and tried something out which has turned out to be rather unpopular. We know that only 6 per cent of existing specialist schools use the right to select by aptitude. That right has proved itself to be unwanted and unworkable and I therefore agree with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that we should not extend it.

7.15 p.m.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: This is another debate which I sense heralds other debates to come. I shall try to address my remarks to the amendment in order to keep my powder dry for later. Again, we are considering how best to respond to the needs of all children. That is something which unites this Chamber and is something which makes me proud to be a Member of it.

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In addressing the amendment let me begin again by saying that the purpose of this power is to respond to proposals which will raise standards. If a proposal comes forward that would not raise standards, it could not be approved.

As noble Lords will know, the admission arrangements for maintained schools are determined locally following a statutory consultation process. Admission authorities for schools must ensure that those arrangements comply with legislation and have regard to my department's code of practice on school admissions. Statutory parties to the consultation may object to the independent schools adjudicator if they are unhappy with any aspect of a school's determined admission arrangements. I cannot envisage a way in which a change to those arrangements could be argued to improve educational standards of children.

The amendment refers to three types of selection—by aptitude, by social class and by religious affiliation. We legislated in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 to rule out any new selection by academic ability except for "fair banding" and sixth forms. I have set out the position on aptitude several times. I shall respect the tiredness of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, at this point in the day, but no doubt we shall return to the matter. I can be clear that we would not use the power to change that position. We are clear that any selection on the basis of social class is unacceptable and the code of practice on school admissions makes it clear that admissions authorities for schools should not set admissions criteria which have the effect of disadvantaging certain social groups in the local community. For example, we would not expect to see criteria that give priority for admission on the basis of a parent's occupation or income. I assure the Committee that any request to the Secretary of State for an order which would disadvantage a particular social class would have no chance of success.

As the Committee will be aware, many schools of a religious character give priority for admission to adherents of a particular faith or denomination. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn mentioned that. That criterion forms part of a school's published admission arrangements and as such must be consulted on, as I described earlier, and may be the subject of objection to the schools adjudicator. As I said earlier, we could not envisage a use of the power to innovate to bypass that process.

In conclusion, I do not believe that the noble Lord's amendment is necessary to achieve the protections he seeks. I hope that, given my assurances, he will agree to withdraw it.

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