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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: On my first day of my first Committee stage, I confess to being slightly lost so far as concerns the procedure. I do not know whether I should talk about clause stand part now or later. I shall do my best to respond in various ways to the relevant issues that have been raised, and I hope that I shall have addressed them all by the time we reach the end of our discussions on these amendments.

As I said, earned autonomy is about trusting schools to exercise additional freedoms and flexibilities in the interests of the schools. We want the process to be as simple and un-bureaucatic as possible, with—I say this to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch—minimal

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involvement from the Secretary of State. However, while we wish as many flexibilities as possible to be made available as of right, we believe that we need to retain the ability to decide whether or not it will be appropriate for regulations to include both automatic and discretionary areas of exemption.

Such decisions will be subject to full consultation. Until we are clear, following consultation, what areas will be covered by regulation, it is important that we retain flexibility. That is precisely why it is appropriate to leave the word "may" in the first line of Clause 6 rather than to replace it by "shall". If the word "shall" were included we would be required to make available some automatic exemptions and some discretionary ones, in both teachers' pay and conditions and in the national curriculum. The word "may" would enable us to make exemptions automatic as far as possible, with no discretionary element.

We have set out in detail our proposals for doing this in a policy statement sent to the committee in another place and that is available in the Library of the House. Therefore, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Before I move on I would like to refer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, which is subjects. I am very pleased that he raised it because, as Members of the Committee will be aware, we have been doing a great deal of work on the Green Paper on the education of 14 to 19-year olds and the flexibility that we are very keen to see in Key Stage 4 of the national curriculum. We have had a chance to reflect on the stance of earned autonomy that we outlined in another place.

It is our view that non-core foundation subjects need to be protected under earned autonomy. That means that no school will be able to suspend any subject, but will be given flexibility in relation to the programmes of study for non-core subjects, allowing far more freedom in teaching and greater scope in curriculum planning. I hope that that is helpful to the noble Lord.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: Does what the Minister has just said in relation to the foundation subjects, or the non-core subjects to which the noble Baroness referred, mean that the core subjects are sacrosanct?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: It does.

Baroness Blatch: I wish to press the noble Baroness on that point. In a Written Answer to me the word "general" is used. It states that in specific cases where the matter could qualify for autonomy, both under innovation and earned autonomy, it was possible for an application to be approved.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: As I have tried to indicate, we have been looking at what is the best and most appropriate way of taking forward earned autonomy within our school system. It is our view that because we have been looking at the strategy for 14 to 19 year-olds that we are very keen to ensure that the flexibility around that group is at the heart of what we

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are trying to do with flexibility. Then we shall look back at the implications involved in terms of Key Stages 1 and 3.

We are aiming to make sure that within our school system a child moving from one school to another or entering the system is aware of the subjects in which it is entitled to be taught and which are available. Beyond that we want to ensure that schools have freedom to be able to explore different and innovative ways, through earned autonomy, of being able to teach those subjects. That is what we are seeking to do within that framework. I hope that clarifies the point for the noble Baroness. If it does not, I shall either write to her or state the issue in a different way.

Baroness Blatch: I have now found the reply, which is to a Written Question (HL 3784). It states,

"The Government have made clear their view that they would not in general regard a proposal to suspend the requirement to teach a compulsory subject as standard-raising unless"-

in other words, there is a caveat—

"appropriate arrangements are in place to secure high standards in the basics and a broad and balanced curriculum. It follows that only in such circumstances would my right honourable friend the Secretary of State have the power to grant the order". [Official Report, 30/04/02; col. WA93.]

That is, grant the order to exempt a compulsory subject from being taught. Therefore, the status of the compulsory subject is affected by both Clause 2 and Clause 5.

9.45 p.m.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I, too, have a copy of the letter that I wrote to the noble Baroness in front of me. It refers to Clause 1, which deals with the power to innovate. I am sorry, but the letter begins by saying:

"Clause 1 means that the Secretary of State would only be permitted to approve proposals if she considers that they would contribute to the raising of standards".

It refers specifically to the powers to innovate.

Baroness Blatch: It is true that the letter was written in relation to "innovate". However, all I am saying is that the compulsory nature of the subject is already distorted in this Bill. In fact, the reply to the Written Question from which I quoted a short time ago refers to Clause 2. The actual question put to the Minister was whether this would be possible under proposals set out in Clause 2, and I have already repeated the reply. The compulsory nature of the subject is already compromised by Clause 2, and, I believe, by Clause 5.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Clause 2 relates to the power to innovate. The reply given to the noble Baroness referred to the power to innovate. I am sorry if the noble Baroness finds that confusing. However, both Clause 1 and Clause 2 refer to the power to innovate. That is the issue to which I was replying.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Perhaps I may return to Amendment No. 33. I thank the Minister for her reply. I have a copy of the policy statement, which the noble Baroness was kind enough to send to us. Can she

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tell me what the difference is between a policy statement and a regulation? Quite clearly, those who are trying to run schools do need governance as to whether or not they should apply. I recognise that they cannot do so unless they have some kind of guidance. Surely it would be sensible to cover this by way of guidance, or through regulations. I have a slight preference for guidance because I believe it to be slightly less centralising.

It would be sensible for me to withdraw my amendment. Perhaps the Minister could write to me with the answer to my question.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am in a position to give the noble Baroness the answer. A policy statement is put before Parliament, whereas regulations are the vehicle by which it is implemented. However, the two should reflect each other.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Am I right in thinking that the policy statement issued now will lead to regulations at a later date?

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Yes.

Baroness Blatch: I am sorry to be pernickety again, but did the Minister say that the policy statement is a document that is put before Parliament? I have a copy of the statement, but I have never seen any mention on an Order Paper of it being put before Parliament. If the document is placed in the Library of the House, that is very different. The placing of a document before Parliament is a very formal process. It is important to know whether it is put before Parliament, or whether it is simply a document for information in order to clarify the Government's thinking underlying the policy.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The noble Baroness is absolutely correct: I was misled—

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: By me!

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I was not going to name him, but I was misled by my noble friend Lord McIntosh. As I said, the noble Baroness is absolutely correct: the document is put in the Library, and not laid before Parliament. I apologise. I shall get better at this in time.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Walmsley moved Amendment No. 34:

Page 4, line 33, at end insert—

"( ) In so far as regulations made under this section relate to a pay or conditions provision they shall in addition to providing for an exemption or modification make provision also for the determination of the relevant pay or conditions by means of negotiation between relevant bodies and representatives of those to whom different pay and conditions are to be applied."

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The noble Baroness said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 38, 48 and 49. The purpose of this group of amendments is to probe the Government's intentions in relation to qualifying schools exempt from legislation relating to teachers' pay and conditions.

The amendments seek to ensure negotiating rights for staff and their representatives in schools with earned autonomy. There has been a long argument about whether the existing statutory procedure for the determination of teachers' pay and conditions conforms to international conventions. Without the provisions sought by these amendments the Government could place themselves further outside their international obligations.

Clause 9(1), as it stands, clearly assumes that pay and other conditions of school staff exempted from statutory arrangements will be determined unilaterally by the governing body, even though the governing body will not be the employer of staff in community and voluntary controlled schools. Clearly that is nonsense.

Given recent difficulties in recruiting teachers, it is unlikely that schools will want to move away from the school teachers' pay and conditions document in order to worsen teachers' conditions. However, it is easy to see how some schools may be tempted to move away from it in order to recruit staff, without adequate consideration of the impact on retention of other staff. That could exacerbate the current staffing problems, the extent of which the Government will not know until they have conducted the long-awaited staffing and curriculum survey, on which the Minister recently told the House in an Answer to a Starred Question from myself that we shall have to wait another year.

However, there is nothing to prevent teachers in any school negotiating the non-statutory aspects of pay and conditions. By involving the teachers' unions, the amendment would ensure that such negotiations were placed on a whole-school basis. It would therefore protect schools from inadvertently straying into starting internecine wars in staff rooms, supposedly havens of peace and refuges from the stresses and strains of the classroom. I beg to move.

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