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Lord Peston: Amendment No. 37 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lady David. Broadly it is in line with what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has said. What is the point of the clause on pay? The Minister will remember that this kind of opt-out from statutory pay and conditions was a characteristic of the GM schools regime. It is interesting that of the GM schools—they numbered only about 1,000—only three opted out. One wonders why the Government have decided that they should return to the theme. What is the point?
The positive side of offering more, which is what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke of, must have an effect if they are able to do this. If they are not able to offer more I cannot see why they have been given the
power. It must have an effect on recruitment, which will have adverse effects on neighbouring schools that do not have the same power.I do not want to make a Treasury point, but I am amazed that the Treasury would want to give any schools the power to start spending excess sums of money that the Treasury cannot control. I should have thought that the Treasury would be keen to retain the nationally agreed scales. Maybe the Treasury, for once, has not noticed this Bill going through Parliament.
My honourable friend the Minister with responsibility for schools said in the other place that he was aware of this point. He also appeared to say that he did not believe that anyone would make much use of it. He did not accept that there would be much possible effect on neighbouring schools. However, he must then find himself with a logical difficulty. If schools do not make use of the power, why are we giving it to them? And if they do make use of it, there is no way of getting round the fact that it will have an effect on other schools.
Mostly we concentrate on poaching by means of excess pay, but I am not convinced by the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. She believes that there will be no attempt to cut pay. Anyone who knows anything about the way that organisations work knows that if they run into financial difficulties, they may well ask members of staff whether they still want their jobs. Members of staff who are not highly mobile may then be told that they had better accept a worsening of pay or work more hours.
I do not regard as trivial the part of my amendment that talks about poorer pay and conditions. But my main point is that I regard most of this as hypothetical and overwhelmingly I can see no case for any of the pay and conditions provisions being included in the Bill. Therefore I ask my noble friend to think again about this. It is something that a sensible government would not introduce into the education system. It is asking for trouble. It will be no discredit for the Government to say, "This is a silly thing. We were taken with it in a fit of madness and the time has come to return to sanity".
Lord Lucas: Over the years it seems to me that the national pay scales for teachers and nurses have served to make them among the most poorly and underpaid professions in this country. If one surrenders one's bargaining power and deals not with local people who understand one's specific qualities, but subjects oneself to a national system, there is little else that could happen over the long-term other than pay going down. One need only look at the train drivers to see what happens when that position is reversed. They negotiate with people rather more local to their place of employment and their salaries go up at a great rate.
I should like to see teachers' salaries rising at a considerable rate. It is a good idea to have mechanisms in place which encourage schools to pay good teachers money over and above what they are worth. It encourages them to use teachers more innovatively
and more efficiently, beyond anything else. Being stuck in the current stultifying system is one of the great drawbacks of the present school system.The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raises the prospect of it being even worse. Thank goodness we will never see a Liberal government.
Lord Peston: I am not sure whether it is allowed in the rules, but perhaps I can offer the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, a bet. He is younger than me so he may live to see this happen. Is he really saying that if we went along these lines, teachers overall will be better off? Wearing my economics hat, I bet him that the best they can hope for is as good and the more likely outcome is worse. If there were ever a case of let us wait and live to see the day, this is a very good example of possible predictions.
Lord Lucas: There are only a few examples available at the moment. But can the noble Lord say whether teachers at the Thomas Telford School are paid better or worse than average?
Lord Peston: That is an easy question for me. I do not know.
Lord Dearing: Perhaps I could add a word of caution on schools being involved in local pay negotiations. I know no more expensive hobby for an amateur than to engage in pay negotiations with professionals. I have tried!
I know the Local Government Association is concerned about this aspect. Local initiatives by one school will inevitably impact across the system. If this is to go forward, it may be advisable for the schools to consult their LEA before committing themselves.
Baroness Blatch: Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Peston, a question through the Minister, unconnected with whether or not people receive poorer pay. I believe that the impetus would be for greater pay rather than for poorer pay. Certainly that is the case where it has been exercised, as my noble friend said. And I can answer the question in relation to the Thomas Telford School; the teachers are paid infinitely more than the normal national pay and conditions stipulate.
In relation to paragraph (b) in Amendment No. 37, staff are moving from school to school all the time. They move in and out of the faith and independent sectors; they move across the maintained sectors; they move from primary to secondary and the other way round. It is difficult to know therefore what is and what is not poaching. Some schools certainly give a nod and a wink about a forthcoming vacancy and invite people to think about it. That is the normal sort of head-hunting that takes place. It would be nearly impossible to prove a case of poaching of teachers.
My other point is more philosophical. Teachers should be free to go where they want. No teacher moves by compulsion. If a teacher wishes to move from one school to another, it may not be the pay that
is the attraction; it may be the philosophy or the ethos of the school; it may be that somebody wants to move into or out of a faith school. So paragraph (b) is questionable. I have no comment to make on paragraph (a).10 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I raise the example of further education colleges, which when they became bodies corporate were able to move over to locally negotiated pay and where, on the whole, pay has not been raised. Many staff were then made self-employed—effectively they became contract staff to the further education colleges. One complaint that we heard last week at a lobby concerned the low rates of pay and the lack of pay increases for years.
Lord Peston: As I was asked a question that I do not take to be rhetorical, we ought to remember what we are discussing. We are discussing the creation of a special class of schools within the whole class of schools with additional powers. We are not discussing all schools competing equally against each other, which might lead to a proper outcome. A special group will be allowed to do things that other schools cannot.
I am asking my noble friend: what is it about those schools that we should give them those powers? What would they gain—what would be gained—from that? Will the Government reassure us that that will not be to the detriment of schools that do not have those powers? I am about to use a cliché that I took a lifetime oath never to use, but I shall use it because I am getting tired. We are discussing our standard level playing field question.
The Earl of Listowel: I apologise for not being present when the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, moved the amendment. I was not as alert as I should have been. I have heard teachers in Southwark, Haringey and elsewhere express concern that some schools have the most difficult pupils. They struggle and everything seems to work against them. I am worried that the introduction of special payments to certain schools may add to that negative spiral, by which the most successful schools can hire the best teachers and they are drained away from the least successful schools. I should like reassurance that that will not happen—that sink schools will not be created by the measure.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I shall start by addressing Amendments Nos. 34 and 38. I should stress that we intend to make the application procedure for schools contemplating making changes to pay and conditions provisions as simple and straightforward as possible. That is why we intend that qualifying schools that apply for exemption from or modification to designated pay and conditions provisions will be entitled to have their applications approved by the Secretary of State as of right. In general, the Secretary of State should approve proposals under the innovation clauses. Earned autonomy should mean just that.
With reference to the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, we have agreed closely to reconsider the criteria. We want to bring in our good schools with good leadership and management, recognising the circumstances in which they operate, so that we have a breadth and allow those schools to develop under earned autonomy. So it will not just be for one group of schools. It is based on good quality leadership and good standards. As I said, I shall return to discuss the criteria.
We fully recognise and accept the right of teachers at any school where such proposals are made to be consulted. After the governing body has made proposals—teachers are of course represented on and fully involved in the governing body—consultation will be a legal requirement. That is written into the Bill in Clause 7.
In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, when the governing body makes its determinations, it must have regard to general employment law. It will be changing people's contracts of employment; it cannot do that unilaterally. It will be able to take advice from the local education authority or other personnel services providers about how lawfully to give effect to its exemptions or modifications.
It is not clear that negotiating machinery would be needed in every case. Of course, if a school secured extensive exemptions, some local pay determination machinery would be needed to replace the national machinery, but the earned autonomy provisions allow for the possibility of minor modifications and exemptions to suit local circumstances.
The amendment would require negotiation and agreement with the relevant teacher unions at an inappropriate stage in the procedure. Not only would that slow the process; it would make it far more burdensome for the schools. It would mean that an application for any change, however small, would be subject to that requirement.
No sensible governing body will propose changes that will be detrimental to teachers. All governing bodies will keep a close eye on any potential effect on recruitment and retention. The consultation stage of the process gives teachers full opportunity to put their views. No governing body would push through unpopular proposals with no support from the head teacher and staff in the school. The last thing that they want is that teachers—their most valuable asset—should vote with their feet.
I welcome the discussion on the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Peston. I am sure that my noble friend will not be surprised to hear that I cannot support the amendment in practice. However, I hope to offer some reassurance that will satisfy him. I shall explain why the wording of the amendment leaves us in some difficulty. I understand the sentiment behind the use of the word "poorer" in the first part of the amendment and appreciate it at a basic level. However, it would be difficult to define in practice because of its subjective nature and the complexity of the arrangements that could be put in place by a school
subject to earned autonomy and the difficulty of comparing them with what can also be viewed as complex arrangements relating to pay and conditions at a national level.With a potentially wide range of spine points, allowances and bonuses, to say nothing of potential variations in working time, it could be less straightforward than it might at first appear to compare arrangements between schools. I stress once more that no sensible governing body will offer its teachers pay and conditions that are, overall, inferior to those that might be obtained in a school not subject to earned autonomy. On the contrary, they will not pursue the autonomy route unless it offers benefits for their staff, better working arrangements and long-term advantages for the school and its pupils.
That leads me on to consideration of the second part of Amendment No. 37 about the poaching of teachers. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, explained, the proposed change would go far beyond what was workable in practice. It would prevent—or at least restrict—the movement of any staff into schools subject to earned autonomy but not out of them. That restriction would also cover staff who are not in any way subject to the earned autonomy arrangements—for example, non-teaching staff and classroom assistants—through the blanket use of the term "other staff".
I would expect that, if anything, teachers in schools subject to earned autonomy are unlikely to be offered inferior terms and conditions, for the reasons that I have outlined. There could be, for example, a bonus for long service, an allowance for running an out-of-school club or a revised pay scale in return for more flexible working arrangements. We must remember that schools subject to earned autonomy will have no more money than other schools to pay their staff.
It is possible that such earned autonomy schools will be attractive to teachers in other schools if the particular arrangements appeal to them. However, all schools already have the flexibility to offer additional allowances—in particular, recruitment and retention allowances—that can be paid to any classroom teacher, subject to set maxima. The latest changes set out by the STRB and agreed by the Government also offer increased flexibility on head teachers' pay that many schools will welcome. Schools also have the freedom to offer discretionary experience points to classroom teachers. The national pay and conditions arrangements are far from rigid.
Amendment No. 48 would cause us problems. I have already said that we believe strongly that the arrangements set out in the Bill for the practical application and implementation of changes to teachers' pay and conditions arrangements that may follow from the earned autonomy provisions are the right ones. The process that we are putting forward is fair for all concerned, not least teachers, and enables the process to be carried forward with as little bureaucracy as possible on the part of governors and schools.
The amendment would remove from the governing body the explicit authority and duty to make a determination regarding teachers' pay and conditions, to the extent that national conditions do not apply. It is important to be clear about where that duty lies, and it is consistent with the purpose of earned autonomy to extend governors' powers. In most schools, governors are the "relevant body" for the purpose of making pay decisions under the terms of the statutory school teachers' pay and conditions document. In an earned autonomy school, they would continue to make pay decisions; for example, in the case of performance pay. But to remove from governors the ultimate power to make decisions on pay under earned autonomy arrangements, leaving it as a matter for negotiation, cuts right across these statutory arrangements in a way which would only bring confusion and inconsistency.
The amendment would also remove from the LEA the duty to support the governors in giving effect to governors' decisions on matters relating to pay and conditions. For example, the LEA holds the contracts of employment of teachers at community and voluntary controlled schools. If a teacher's contract of employment needs to be changed as a consequence of earned autonomy, the LEA must be required to make the necessary changes. We believe that paragraph (b) is a helpful clarification.
Finally, the amendment would take away the clarification which is necessary for practical reasons about the position of a teacher in respect of pay and conditions from the time the order enabling changes to take place is made and its actual implementation.
Although I understand the reason for Amendment No. 49, I am afraid that I cannot agree that it is appropriate. First, its effect is too wide. The governing body would need to negotiate in some way with any body which represents teachers, whether or not it even has any members at the school. For a governing body to have to do this in respect of every change, small or large, which might affect pay and conditions—even if every teacher at the school had already expressed full support for it during the consultation process—would be quite unnecessary.
It is unnecessary because, although the Bill gives governing bodies the right to determine pay and conditions of teachers in circumstances where an order gives them the right to do so, general employment law means that the governing body cannot make unilateral decisions and they will need to negotiate with the teachers concerned in a manner appropriate to the modification which is being made.
I should point out that the point will not have been reached at a school without the general support of teachers at the school, so the governing body would be proceeding within a constructive climate. What we do not intend is for a form of local negotiating machinery to be imposed, which we believe Amendment No. 40 would do in a heavy-handed way. It will be down to the governing body to carry this forward in a way appropriate to modification or modifications being made.
None the less, I can give clear assurances to Members of the Committee that there will need to be proper consultation with all teachers affected. I hope that that will reassure the noble Baroness.
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