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Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I do not.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the Lord Privy Seal tells us that he does not know. But time and time again Ministers have told us that it was "significant". The Lord Privy Seal does not know what those concessions were. We can only conclude that there must be an extremely good reason why he has not been told.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. When General de Chastelain, who heads the body supervising the decommissioning, says that the arms put out of use are significant, does the noble Lord believe General de Chastelain?
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I do not know the definition of "significant" that the General uses. I find it extraordinary that Her Majesty's Ministers, including the Minister bringing forward the Bill, do not know. Why is it so secret?
I come now to the further reason for calling this the "Pedigree Chum Bill". The chums of most dubious pedigree are, of course, Messrs Adams and McGuinness and the Prime Minister. The latter ignores the widespread belief—the Prime Minister knows whether it is true—that one or both of these gentlemen are, or at least were, members of the IRA council and thus deeply involved in murder and terrorism. He knows whether it is true that IRA/Sinn Fein is part of the world web of terrorism, as the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, commented earlier. The Prime Minister knows whether it is true, as many of us believe, that in between symbolic acts of decommissioning IRA/Sinn Fein has been busy buying new weapons to replace the junk it has decommissioned. He knows whether the IRA has been allowed to take possession of the lists, formerly in the possession of the RUC, of informers against the IRA. The Prime Minister knows, too, whether it is true—I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal knows—that the IRA has continued in its process of reconnaissance and intelligence gathering aimed directly at a number of my friends.
We know from the evidence of our own eyes that Adams and McGuinness consort with terrorists and murderers. We have seen them on television as principal mourners at the funerals of terrorists, walking with armed and masked men. We know that this Bill is presented at a time when the IRA is increasing its ability to wage war, and when the ability of the forces of law to defend the people of this kingdom is being reduced.
There is much in the Bill which makes it a bad Bill—born out of a cross between appeasement and collaboration with militant republicanism. I want no part of it.
12.1 p.m.
Lord Rogan: My Lords, I want to begin by placing on record the sentiments contained in paragraph 12.2 of the Criminal Justice Review. I quote:
- "In looking at these issues we are conscious of the very great difficulties experienced by the Prison Service and the Probation Board in providing services within a divided society at a time of civil strife . . . It is to the credit of the staff that the Prison Service was not only sustained throughout the past 30 years but that there has been a positive record of improvement in the delivery of services to prisoners and their families".
As noble Lords have been reminded several times, the Criminal Justice Review was required under the terms of the Belfast agreement; and this Bill is the product of that review. Indeed, the legislation is of a similar magnitude to that on police reform, given its likely impact on the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland.
I feel that it is important to state firmly at the outset that mistakes were made in policing reform—mistakes that could and should have been avoided. It is therefore essential that care is taken during the passage of this Bill to ensure that similar errors are not repeated.
This legislation will affect the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland from top to bottom: from judicial appointments procedures through to youth justice; the impact will be felt across the board. I therefore have little doubt that your Lordships will wish to examine each and every provision of the Bill with the utmost diligence—a luxury unfortunately not afforded to Members of another place.
Unlike many noble Lords, I am not of a legal background, but I have, with my Ulster Unionist colleagues, endeavoured to research the Bill in as much detail as possible. A notable highlight of our preparations was a particularly informative visit to the Restorative Justice Centre at Highgate, in north London. I want to place on record the thanks of myself and my colleagues to Inspector Brian Dowling and his team for agreeing to brief us on their very impressive work. I hope that, when we come to discuss the restorative justice provisions in the Bill, we shall be able to offer a level of conceptual understanding and knowledge of the practicalities of restorative justice which we did not possess only 10 days ago.
The Ulster Unionist Party prides itself on its open-minded approach to criminal justice initiatives, and in particular to those geared towards diverting young people away from the repeat offender trap. However, unfortunately, where we come from, paramilitaries view themselves as dispensers of justice and have tried to buy into the restorative justice schemes.
Paramilitaries have no place in Northern Ireland society—least of all in the treatment of young offenders. As a result, any attempt to absorb paramilitary initiatives into the mainstream justice system must be resisted. For similar reasons, the proposals on the lay magistracy must also be approached with caution. As the Bill stands, there are no criteria for appointments—in other words, no bars on criminality. We do not want criminals in the police; we do not want criminals on the Bench; and we do not want criminals involved in youth justice.
It is not only the appointment of lay magistrates that is a source of concern; it is judicial appointments as a whole. The Bill puts Northern Ireland's politicians firmly at the centre of judicial appointments procedures. It provides for a judicial appointments commission to enhance accountability and transparency—a provision that we endorse. But the proposal for the commission is flawed. What logic provides for a judicial appointments commission that may delegate its powers to sub-committees made up solely of persons who are not members of the committee?
The Ulster Unionist Party welcomes the creation of a chief inspector of criminal justice. But let us have an inspector with a truly comprehensive remit, and with the ability to inspect all bodies and agencies performing functions within the criminal justice system.
I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran: in our view, notable absentees from the list in Clause 45 include: Consignia; the Financial Services Authority; the police ombudsman; the Inland Revenue; and the Electoral Office. I understand that the Government currently have the issue under review, and I look forward to seeing a more comprehensive list brought forward in Committee.
Then, of course, there is the issue of symbols. The Belfast agreement is clear on Northern Ireland's constitutional status. It was for this very reason that so many unionists supported the agreement. Northern Ireland is to remain part of the United Kingdom unless a majority of the people of Northern Ireland choose otherwise. In the Bill, the Government are going against that principle. By banning the Royal Coat of Arms from our courthouses, they are running counter to the opinion of the greater number of people in Northern Ireland and are acting against the Belfast agreement.
The use of symbols under the agreement has already been challenged in the courts by republicans with respect to the flags regulations. The judgment of Mr Justice Kerr in that case speaks for itself—the flying of the Union flag was not designed to favour one tradition over another; it merely reflects Northern Ireland's constitutional position as part of the United Kingdom. The reason is simple. The flags regulations stipulate that the Union flag should be flown on designated days in line with the rest of the kingdom—no more, no less. Similarly, the use of the Royal Coat of Arms in courtrooms is reflective of both Northern Ireland's constitutional status and its justice system—existing as part of the United Kingdom.
Finally, I shall touch briefly on the proposed community safety partnerships. I have no option but to be brief on this subject as, save for Clause 71, there is virtually no detail provided in the Bill. These community safety partnerships appear to be vehicles by which powers unable to be secured to the district policing partnerships under the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 may well be obtained by dubious community groups. I wish to place the Government on notice that support will not be forthcoming on those proposals unless sufficient detail is made available.
The backdrop to the Bill is, of course, the Government's commitment to devolving criminal justice functions after next May's Assembly elections. For that to happen, there must be stability and there must be confidence in the agreement and the institutions. Regrettably, that is no longer the case. As the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, stated, the exposure of republicans in recent weeks has shaken the process and the reverberations caused have been compounded by government inaction. The Government must now press for paramilitary organisations not only to disarm, but to disband. Unless efforts are made in this House and beyond to demonstrate to unionists and to the ordinary law-abiding population at large in Northern Ireland that their views are respected and protected under the agreement, the future of the accord itself will be placed in even greater peril.
12.12 p.m.
Baroness Goudie: My Lords, I am privileged to be the patron of the Northern Ireland Voluntary Trust. Its purpose is supporting people, changing lives and building peace.
There is much to welcome in the Bill. I shall draw attention to four aspects. First, the Bill provides for the establishment of a law commission for Northern Ireland, which will review not only the criminal, but also the civil law of Northern Ireland, including practice and procedure, and will make recommendations for legislation. The Law Commissioners have existed in England and Wales and in Scotland since the Lord Chancellorship of Lord Gardiner and have proved extremely valuable. The law commission in Northern Ireland is to be representative of the community of Northern Ireland. That is an important feature.
Secondly, Part 4 of the Bill relates to the crucial matter of youth justice. The youth justice system must protect the public—by preventing, so far as reasonably possible, offending by children—and must promote the welfare of children. Those are entirely compatible objectives—indeed, neither can be achieved without the other.
The Bill will establish three significant additional sentencing options for the courts in relation to children: the reparation order, the community responsibility order and the custody care order. Under the first of these additional options, the reparation ordered to be made by the child would be to the victim of the offence, to some other person affected by it or to the community at large. It would be for the court to
decide to whom the reparation was to be made and what form it should take in the individual case. Forms of reparation will be as varied as the offences in respect of which they are imposed. For example, reparation could take the form of repairing damaged property.A community responsibility order will have two distinctive components. The first part will require the offender to receive relevant instruction in citizenship. The second part will require the offender to carry out practical activities.
Those are both community sentences. Custody care orders are a new form of custodial sentence for child offenders. A child in respect of whom a custody care order is made would be held in secure accommodation and therefore under supervision.
As well as these additional sentencing options, the Bill will create for Northern Ireland a wholly new way of dealing with child offenders and with children who, but for these provisions, would be the subject of proceedings: youth conferences and youth conference plans, the purpose of which is to require the child to carry out specified actions in order to make reparation, address the child's behaviour and meet the needs of the victim. There will be a large range of options. This is a brave experiment. Restorative justice has been pioneered in the United States, New Zealand and Australia and by the Thames Valley Police.
Thirdly, I welcome the requirement that victims be given information about the discharge and temporary release of prisoners unless there is sound justification for not doing so.
Finally, the Bill provides for a community safety strategy and local community safety partnerships. The Secretary of State has already published the community safety strategy for Northern Ireland. Community safety includes not only the reduction of crime, but also the reduction of anti-social behaviour and the addressing of other factors that affect people's perceptions of safety. The community strategy identifies what the Government see as the key priorities for community safety in Northern Ireland. The consultation document sets out the key priorities for community safety in Northern Ireland. It also sets out how these issues can be best addressed and, vitally, the means of delivery.
As we saw from yesterday's visit to Northern Ireland by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, sufficient financial and other resources have been committed. The Secretary of State will have the power to set up local community safety partnerships. That power will be exercised only after discussion with the Executive on the best way forward. These partnerships will identify local problems. They will work in association with voluntary groups and with others in the local community. The functions of the local community safety partnerships will include preparing and publishing local plans for enhancing community safety, which must fit in with the Secretary of State's strategy and reflect local concerns and the results of local research.
Taken together, this combination of measures and the many other provisions in the Bill will provide an essential framework for the advancement of justice in Northern Ireland.
12.17 p.m.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, we have rightly been reminded, most recently by the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, that the Bill has its origins in the Belfast agreement, which provided that the British Government should undertake a wide-ranging review of the criminal justice system, leaving aside matters of policing and those that relate to the emergency legislation for the time being. It follows that what we think of the Bill—which, to a great extent, reflects the recommendations of the resulting review body—will depend on what we think of the agreement and of the way in which it has been variously implemented or flouted since Good Friday 1998.
For my part, in spite of many disappointments and a great deal of wanton, cynical flouting of the agreement by Sinn Fein/IRA, I continue to think of the agreement as a historically positive milestone. It marked an accumulation of extra miles travelled by ourselves and others—miles that were full of pain, but holding out great hope for future progress. Progress towards what? It is progress towards a tranquil, responsible, devolved government, such as is enjoyed elsewhere in the United Kingdom, in which all can have confidence and all can play their part.
That hope may be disappointed in the end, although I think that there have been some real achievements. The Government, and people such as myself, may find that we have been taken for a ride, together with those whom we have urged to come with us. There is already, alas, more than enough to justify doubt. If so, there will have been a most monstrous betrayal, but I shall still think it was the right course to have followed.
That is the spirit, not I hope sickeningly nai ve, in which I look in particular at the Bill's proposals for appointing the judiciary and for reordering the arrangements for prosecuting offences in Northern Ireland.
My starting point is that there is not much wrong with things as they are and plenty that is very right indeed. Other things being equal, I would leave them alone. But, as we know, other things are not equal in Northern Ireland. If change is needed to secure in the minority community the necessary confidence in the fairness of the criminal justice system, then there is a case for change.
In my view, the judges in Northern Ireland have, since the outset of what is still called the emergency 30 years ago, shown the most exemplary integrity and courage. I am pleased to be able to say that in the presence of one of them. I have seen the fortresses into which their homes have had to be turned, and the homes which in some instances they have been obliged to leave. Over many years I have been to the funerals and the memorial services for those who have paid the ultimate price for doing their sworn duty. I recall one murder which robbed of her life the young daughter of
a resident magistrate as the family were leaving Mass. She was cut down in front of him. However, despite his own grievous injuries, once he recovered he resumed his duties on the Bench.One former much loved colleague in this House, the late Lord Lowry of Crossgar, survived quite undismayed two attempts to assassinate him as Chief Justice. Indeed, he is a case in point when we speak of judicial independence and integrity in Northern Ireland, for it was he who ruled at the height of the terrorist violence that the evidence of a supergrass alone could not be sufficiently reliable to found a conviction. He accordingly overturned the long-sought convictions of a number of highly dangerous people, notwithstanding that many more would obviously go unprosecuted in future.
I never heard it alleged that any of the judges was biased, and people were not reticent in what they alleged to me. All this suggests to me that the system whereby the Lord Chancellor appoints the High Court judges and below is not a bad one, with the Prime Minister recommending to the Queen appointments to the Court of Appeal. Over the years they seem to have got it right. As it happens, over the years, the minority community has been consistently represented on the Bench in the higher courts in a proportion that has been demographically proportionate to their strength, if not slightly more favourable than that.
It is sadly true that, at county court level, Catholics have been scarce, but that was because they declined appointments in many instances that could carry Diplock court responsibilities without the consoling status and remuneration of a High Court judge. But, at page 117, the review body states that,
- "One of the strongest messages to come across was a desire for transparency in judicial appointments",
- "Impartiality, fairness, independence and freedom from political influence were themes that recurred throughout the consultation process".
In a part of our country where suspicion, misperception and myth are so prevalent and so malign, I have to acknowledge that transparency in judicial appointments carries a substantial premium. There is a risk that the Judicial Appointments Commission proposed by the Bill, as recommended by the review body, will for one reason or another not have the same success in selecting the best candidate for a vacancy. I think that we shall need to look carefully at that proposal. While I take heart from the fact that the Lord Chief Justice will head up the commission, I hope that we shall increase the proportion of legally qualified members comprising the commission. It is very difficult to see how a lay person can know who is the best qualified candidate. But, that said, I think that the proposed changes can in general be supported, although in my case with a reluctant heart. I note particularly the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney.
I sorely regret what is proposed by way of a change to the judicial oath. I have to acknowledge that its inclusion in the package is a profound, provocative
and I think unwarranted affront particularly to those who are Unionists. However, it is significant to me that, in the review body's report, this recommendation is rather faintly argued. It was hedged around with much, "on the one hand and on the other", as on page 142. Ultimately, the body recommended as it did only because it had received representations that the current judicial oath or equivalent affirmation and oath of allegiance could constitute a blockage,
- "which might inhibit people from applying for judicial appointments".
Many noble Lords still wish to speak, and many have spoken already. It is therefore not out of disregard for the importance of many other features of the Bill—some of them the cause of much anxiety, as has been made clear today—that I turn lastly to the proposed arrangements for prosecutions. The devastating impact that the prosecuting arm of the state can have upon the lives of individuals is sometimes not wholly appreciated. It is profoundly important that people should have confidence in the way in which it is exercised. I therefore support the proposals for a prosecuting service.
The review body drew attention to the tremendous and unfair disadvantages under which the new Crown Prosecution Service for England and Wales laboured when it was set up. I am afraid that I carry some responsibility for that, as I have already acknowledged to the CPS, because I did not as Solicitor-General carry enough clout, to be blunt about it, to get enough money out of the Treasury. The result was that the CPS was set up 25 per cent understaffed in lawyers, and disaster followed for some time. However, the review body also pointed to the great advantage of separating the police from the prosecuting function. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has demonstrated his support for that important principle. Those advantages are manifold. People tend to forget the strong pressure for an independent service that led to the Philips report, in 1981, I think, to recommend one for England and Wales.
I was very glad to read the tribute to the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland, Sir Alasdair Fraser, which the review body made in its report, and to hear the comments made about him today by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal. The tribute reflects the view that the role of the Attorney-General and his predecessors—and the tradition of scrupulous impartiality and independence established by Sir Barry Shaw, who held the newly created post for 17 years, from 1972—has been faithfully maintained.
But how is there to be accountability for the new service? This question of accountability is enormously delicate and difficult. Of course the Bill provides that until devolution is complete things shall go on as they are, with the Attorney-General for England and Wales superintending, and having a power to direct, the DPP in Northern Ireland. However, I am not aware of any
occasion on which that has been exercised, and the review body could find none. In England and Wales he does not have any such power.I believe that that system—notwithstanding that the Attorney-General is a member of government and a politician as well as a lawyer; indeed, I would argue, because he is both—has worked well down the years. The convention of detachment from partisan influences in considerations is well established. I believe that if the Attorney-General's staff really believed that it was being flouted in any particular instance, they would have a duty to say so to the head of the Civil Service who would have to tell the Prime Minister that he had trouble on his hands. What is more, that is a view which I held when I was Attorney-General and which I communicated to my staff.
I can, however, quite see that in the special circumstances of Northern Ireland, as they will be when the administration has its own Attorney-General under the Bill, which I support, confidence in the prosecuting system will be more readily assured if the DPP or his equivalent is wholly independent in the exercise of his duties. All the same, the question of accountability remains a very difficult one. For example, there is the question of the power to enter a nolle prosequi to bring a prosecution to an end. That will have to be considered, and who ought to exercise it. Someone is always expected to be on hand in a parliamentary democracy within the legislature to answer for decisions. To have to do so when you have no power to do anything about them is, to say the least, irksome and unsatisfactory.
I return to the sombre note on which I began. This Bill takes at face value the commitment to the Belfast agreement of all who were associated with it. It provides for changes that in other circumstances I would not have been able to support. To that extent, it is the product of what I might call an act of calculated faith. It will be a monstrous but, unfortunately, not an unimaginable crime if that faith is spurned. Meanwhile, a Second Reading is well deserved.
12.31 p.m.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, I regard it as a great privilege to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden. His services in Northern Ireland were greatly enhanced by his understanding of and his loyalty to judicial principles, as was evident during his earlier time as Attorney-General of the United Kingdom. In that respect he has much in common with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal.
In previous months it has been claimed that the contents of the Bill were approved by the Weston Park agreement. However, it is now admitted that there was no such agreement. Representatives of some, and only some, Northern Ireland parties were invited to the locality of Weston Park but it does not appear that they were ever permitted even casually to chat with the two Prime Ministers who were seen to be masterminding the event. At least one noble Lord who was present on the estate—although I do not know
whether he was in the building—has testified that there was no conference and certainly no agreement. However, we appear to have moved on from that kind of venture which I regarded at the time, and still consider, as a form of American "away day" of the type which has been such a dazzling success in the Middle East.The Bill represents the final betrayal of Lord Carson, the distinguished lawyer and one time Attorney-General who championed above all else the unity of the United Kingdom early in the previous century. In regard to Northern Ireland, he is on record as having pleaded with the House of Commons,
- "Govern us as you govern yourselves".
Part 1 appears to run counter to basic judicial principles which are greatly prized by the entire population. Clause 1 comprises two lines and is headed:
- "Guarantee of continued judicial independence".
- "Those with responsibility for the administration of justice must uphold the continued independence of the judiciary".
- "The First Minister and deputy First Minister, acting jointly, may by order amend".
- "The First Minister and deputy First Minister, acting jointly".
An even more difficult problem arises from new Section 12A which is headed:
- "Appointment of judges of High Court".
- "Her Majesty may from time to time, on the recommendation of the First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly, appoint a qualified person . . . by letters patent".
It is equally clear that the two Ministers cannot a second time depend upon rescue from redesignation by two or three Assembly members—a rather odd event which occurred a few months ago—in other words by a reversible political sex change such as happened to the Alliance Party.
Worse still, similar arrangements are proposed for the removal of senior judges. I use again that delicious phrase,
- "The First Minister and deputy First Minister, acting jointly".
Noble Lords will, I know, have taken heed of Wednesday's speech by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham. He concluded that,
- "in modern eyes, it was always anomalous that a legislative body should exercise judicial power".
12.41 p.m.
Baroness Crawley: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux of Killead, who has served the people of Northern Ireland well for many years. Although I sometimes disagree with what he says, I always have a great deal of respect for him.
As we know, the Bill implements the review of criminal justice in Northern Ireland, which was set out in the Good Friday agreement. As many noble Lords have said, that review was the most important review of the Northern Ireland justice system for three decades.
As a result of the grave issues that have formed the past 30 years in Northern Ireland, when there have been reviews in the rest of the UK—and, no doubt, in the rest of Europe—of criminal justice systems, such reviews have undoubtedly and understandably not been a priority for politicians in Northern Ireland. But now, in the context of the agreement, change is under way. As my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House has made plain, that is not modernisation for modernisation's sake; it is about the justice system being impartial, accountable, transparent and, most importantly, fair. As he said, it must be seen to be fair by both traditions in Northern Ireland.
For the legislation to work, it must have the confidence of the majority of people of good will. I believe that it will have that confidence because it endeavours to maintain the best of the old system while establishing appropriate international concepts and practices. Before moving on too far, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, movingly put it, it is important to reiterate our proper acknowledgement of the real professionalism of those who have administered justice in Northern Ireland through difficult, trying and often terrible times during the past many decades.
Des Browne, Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office, commented on the review and the Bill in a newspaper article in January 2002. He said that,
- "it gives us an opportunity to do things that we think all modern societies should have in place".
Those are some of the key features of the Bill. Others include the creation of the new independent prosecution service and the creation of the new criminal justice inspectorate and a Northern Ireland law commission to improve the management of the criminal justice system.
The Bill also includes the development of crime prevention measures and community safety at central and local levels. I am glad to say that in the consultative paper, which all noble Lords have received, the issue of resourcing such a strategy was not ducked. There may well be many arguments about its resourcing but it is laid out plainly in that paper.
The Bill also proposes regulating the use of symbols in Northern Ireland courtrooms and courthouses, as we have heard. It is essential to reach agreement on that. I hope, for the sake of those who have high and
exacting expectations of the Bill, that we do not spend the vast majority of our deliberations on it considering just one element of the changes—court symbols. Important as they undoubtedly are, the other 200-plus provisions in the Bill are also important to the changing lives of people in Northern Ireland, who want a justice system that they can be proud of and part of.As chair of the Women's National Commission, I regularly meet women's organisations in Northern Ireland and from Northern Ireland. Only this week I was invited to meet a great group of Ulster Unionist women Members, who were visiting the Houses of Parliament. What always strikes me in my meetings with women from Northern Ireland is that, despite the very real pain that has affected them and their families over the years, they inevitably want to talk about how things can be made better, how peace can be realistically sought and maintained, how practical measures can be put in place and how funding streams can be obtained to strengthen their communities. They are always less interested in rhetoric than in results. Many of those women argued for and supported the agreement as the best way forward for lasting peace and prosperity in Northern Ireland. It is important for us in this House to assist them in maintaining their support for the agreement, from which the Bill ultimately comes. We should do so in the face of loud dissenting voices, which offer no real alternative but whose arguments can be superficially attractive to communities that feel frustrated and sometimes overlooked.
This Bill is part of the progressive devolution process that has already been set out in other parts of the United Kingdom. I believe that it is part of a better way forward for justice for the people of Northern Ireland.
12.47 p.m.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I rise to support the Bill as a further building block for the Belfast Good Friday agreement. Like many noble Lords, I have received several papers from organisations that are interested in and concerned about the Bill. There is no shortage of advice, which is broadly supportive of the Bill. Whether the advice comes from the Law Society of Northern Ireland or the paper from the Northern Ireland Assembly, it appears to be broadly supportive.
I am particularly attracted to the paper from the ad hoc committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Other noble Lords have referred to the lack of time in the other place. The authors of the paper complain about the lack of time available for consultation. They referred to the independence and impartiality of the legal profession. They also acknowledged their own future involvement and referred to their concern about human rights. They talked about greater transparency, particularly with regard to the public prosecution service, and an independent probation board. They set out a rather constructive list in the paper. Of course, in the future we shall spend a fair
amount of time looking at the tremendous detail in the Bill. From these Benches we look forward to tabling helpful amendments in Grand Committee.We are particularly concerned about Part 4 of the Bill, which deals with youth justice. Of course, young offenders are a problem across the UK and not only in Northern Ireland. But we welcome the provision for youth conferences, community responsibility orders and custody care orders.
The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission suggests that there is a need to inject a strong element of human rights by, for example, introducing international criteria. The age of responsibility should reflect the recommendations of the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child, and those should also be incorporated into other parts of the Bill; for example, in Clause 52, which deals with the aims of the youth justice system. Reparation orders are a most welcome feature in so far as they introduce an element of restorative justice. There is also a requirement that courts explain such orders in ordinary language to the child.
I trust that during the period when we discuss the Bill, and in the future as a whole, we shall not have interruptions caused by violence or by sectarian and base issues. Perhaps after the Dail election and before the next Northern Ireland Assembly elections, there will be a window when we can discuss the Bill with purpose and without too much intrusion from extramural Northern Ireland matters.
12.51 p.m.
Lord Laird: My Lords, much has been said here today by many interesting and challenging speakers, and most important areas have already been covered. For that very reason, I do not intend to extend the debate longer than is necessary.
There are many aspects to this Bill—some, I must say, good and some very bad. I join those noble Lords who hope that in Committee all parts will be closely examined in a manner that was not employed in another place. I am disappointed that the Committee stage may not take place on the Floor of your Lordships' House. This is an important measure for the future of my Province and that should be reflected in our treatment of the Bill.
Much has been made about the proposed devolution of the functions of policing and justice to the Northern Ireland Assembly after the next scheduled elections in May 2003. Many people are concerned about the possibility of the politicisation of the justice system. That has been expressed by noble Lords today. It could be done through the input of appointees and advice from the First and Deputy First Ministers at various stages. This may show faith in the continuance of the agreement and the Assembly, which will be hard-tested.
I join again those noble Lords who are concerned about the level of support for the agreement, particularly from the Unionist community. I am afraid that, through some mishandling by the Government
and underhanded activity by IRA/Sinn Fein, support for the new arrangements is at an all-time low. Much could and must be done to restore confidence.I respectfully suggest that the House does not dismiss those appeals. We who make them are Ulstermen who are working very hard to bring our entire community back on to the straight and narrow. Such appeals should not be simply dismissed as narrow and as reflecting a particular political viewpoint which does not have a broad perspective. We are concerned about the future of our Province as much as, if not more than, anyone else in this House.
I noted in a document, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, referred, from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which I received the other day, that it would like to see,
- "the composition of the judiciary in Northern Ireland reflect the composition of society".
An issue which should be addressed is the inclusion of the office and activities of the Police Ombudsman when considering the remit of the chief inspector of criminal justice. Again, that matter has already been mentioned. But I believe that this could be a way of ensuring that holders of that office act in a constructive and proper way.
I, too, support the basic concept of accredited restorative justice schemes. I joined my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, on a recent visit to Highgate to hear about a pilot scheme and was most impressed. Correctly administered, it is my opinion that this could provide the answer to some problems that we have in Ulster society. But the Bill will require careful examination at future stages. I believe that we must be prepared for a long and arduous process to ensure that we get the best results possible out of this piece of legislation.
12.56 p.m.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, as other noble Lords have already made clear in their contributions, this is a most important and, indeed, historic Bill. The changes provided for in the Bill are all important in their own right, but they also pave the way for the ultimate devolution of these functions to the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland.
I speak as someone who has been committed throughout my political life to the cause of devolution. As co-chair of the Scottish Constitutional Convention with the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, and as one of the government team who took the Scotland Bill through this House, I have had the privilege of helping the achievement of devolution to Scotland. And, as a West of Scotland Scot, with, on my father's side, ancestry from both communities in Northern
Ireland, I feel emotionally as well as intellectually committed to helping the same process of devolution to Northern Ireland.Of course, policing and criminal justice are currently reserved to Westminster. But in the Belfast agreement the Government clearly indicated their willingness in principle to devolve responsibility for policing and justice to the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. This Bill, therefore, enacts one of the key outstanding parts of the Belfast agreement and it delivers an enhanced and modernised criminal justice system for Northern Ireland. It also delivers a manifesto commitment. The Labour manifesto for the last election said:
- "We will . . . ensure that the Good Friday Agreement is implemented in full and the new institutions take root . . . we will bring about the key reforms in the civil and criminal justice system which secure the respect and trust of both traditions".
A good pace has been kept in bringing about this Bill. The review group was set up in June 1998 under the Belfast agreement. The comprehensive and very impressive Review of the Criminal Justice System in Northern Ireland, containing 294 recommendations for change, was published in March 2000. The Government published their response in the form of an implementation plan and the draft Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill for consultation in November 2001. The Bill was introduced in another place on 18th December 2001, with its Second Reading in January 2002.
The implementation plan stated that the Government's target—not a deadline—is to devolve policing and justice after the Assembly elections scheduled for May 2003. As my right honourable friend John Reid said during the Second Reading debate of the Bill in another place, the decision to devolve can only be taken at that time, taking account of security and other relevant considerations. He stressed, as has been repeated often, that that is a target and not a deadline. Those points were emphasised today by my noble and learned friend Lord Williams of Mostyn when he opened the debate.
At this stage, I do not intend to make comments at length on this long and detailed Bill. I am sure that we shall have ample opportunity to do that during later stages of the Bill. However, I want to refer to two points in the Bill. First, Clauses 27 and 28 deal with the appointment of an advocate general. I do not believe that there can be any disagreement that such a post is necessary to carry out the functions that concern excepted matters. We, in Scotland, are very familiar with that system now and it works well. Of course, the differences of Scots law make the situation different from Northern Ireland, but the basic principle is the same. Also the closeness of the legal system in Northern Ireland with that of England and Wales makes it logical that the Attorney-General for England and Wales should, as it says in the Bill,
- "by virtue of that office",
The second point is in Part 5 of the Bill. Clauses 65 and 66 deal with royal arms and flags, mentioned by many noble Lords. The Criminal Justice Review Group says in its report—it is important to consider the exact words used:
- "views at seminars were not entirely polarised, and there was often agreement that while flags and emblems could be provocative, removing symbols could be just as provocative. We heard the plea that any recommendation in this area should be guided by the need for sensible modernisation making the system more transparent and intelligible".
As someone born and brought up in Glasgow, I am very aware of the significance of the symbols and what a sensitive and an explosive area this can be. But I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, who said, if I understood his remarks correctly, that the recommendations under this heading were the worst of all possible worlds. However, I believe he added—I do not want to paraphrase him incorrectly—that as the Government have succeeded in annoying both sides, perhaps they may have done something right.
I disagree with that because I believe that what the review group recommended, what the Government accepted and what the Bill contains is a,
- "sensible modernisation making the system more transparent and intelligible".
All noble Lords know that the reforms will take time to come about. I want to conclude by echoing the words of my honourable friend Des Browne when he summed up on the Second Reading of the Bill in another place. He expressed his confidence that once these reforms have been fully implemented, Northern Ireland will have a criminal justice system that can be measured against the best in the world.
1.4 p.m.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I have no legal competence. I have to speak as a layman. Perhaps I may begin by quoting the Sinn Fein/IRA view of the Bill in January this year:
- "It is unreasonable to expect that those who facilitated the distortion of the criminal justice system should be allowed to remain in place in the absence of clear and demonstrable evidence of a change in attitude in relation to the framework of repressive powers available to the judiciary, and in the absence of an acknowledgement that the court operated as an adjunct to the British state's criminalisation strategies. Future judicial figures should also be drawn from a wider pool of qualified candidates in order to eradicate the corrosive and unaccountable system of patronage currently in operation. The under-representation of Nationalists and women amongst the judiciary must be dealt with as a matter of urgency. The relevant areas to address also include the issues of class background, ethnic origin and political allegiance. A judicial structure should be fully representative of the society it serves, and a monitoring mechanism should ensure that this occurs and is maintained within a specified time frame".
This echoes the Sinn Fein/IRA attitude to the former RUC—now the Police Service of Northern Ireland—when it demanded a 50 per cent Catholic membership, even at the expense of losing a large
number of experienced police officers to make room. It then refused to join the police force and Sinn Fein/IRA threatened explicitly to treat Catholics joining,
- "as they treated them before",
The Bill proposes a number of changes that will probably prove generally acceptable and workable to all. They are, however, the result of lengthy consultation and advice, much of it from organisations created since the Belfast agreement, which have their share of Sinn Fein/IRA sympathisers—Sinn Fein is very good at entryism—with their own long-term agenda. I am not speaking about the war on emblems, the oath and the Crown. Others have done that better than I can. I am speaking about a far more insidious agenda: the intention to use the new institutions to weaken the rule of law through their familiar Trojan horse technique.
The Diplock review body and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, reporting on the operation of the Terrorism Act, recommended that the time is not yet ripe for a return to jury trial,
- "in view of the risk of intimidation of jurors which remains very significant".
Two things concern me about this Bill. One is the perversity of Part 4 on youth justice, which states in Clause 52:
- "The principal aim of the youth justice system is to protect the public by preventing offending by children".
There is a yet more disturbing aspect of this section of the Bill. It comes in Clauses 70 and 71 which deal with community safety partnerships and a community safety strategy, whose laudable object is to make a place,
- "safer to live and work, in particular by the reduction of actual and perceived levels of crime and other anti-social behaviour".
- "because of their extensive military and command experience",
- "An IRA officer commanding at Long Kesh could have responsibility for 700 people, negotiating on their behalf and organising them. This represents considerable management experience".
I welcome the police community safety campaign in schools. The police, not the paramilitaries, are the right people to discuss the future operations of the community safety strategy. That is the way to get the police engaged with the local community—the RUC was doing that as far back as 1999—and to prevent the paramilitaries taking over the function, ending the last hope that people have of living under the protection of the rule of law.
We need to ensure that the Bill does not focus too much on curbing a menacing state. For that reason, I should like also the police ombudsman to come under the scrutiny of the chief inspector of criminal justice.
Will the victim information scheme in Clause 67 apply to the victims of the on-the-run people, whose unpunished return to the community the Weston Park formula is intended to provide? According to Clauses 67 and 68, the Secretary of State must establish a victim information scheme. What steps are being taken now by the Secretary of State to consult with victims before any further action is even considered to bring back the on-the-runs? Such consultation would quickly reveal the deep anger and revulsion that would be aroused were the perpetrators of the Enniskillen outrage and similar acts to be allowed to return to their communities scot-free—no doubt to be welcomed back by their fellow murderers, who were at least tried and served part of a sentence.
The return of such persons would be all the more intolerable in that at both Weston Park and in the many discussions on restorative justice, peace and
reconciliation, and the reintegration of such people into society, the families and individuals exiled by the paramilitaries over the past 15 years or more—cut off from their world—must remain in the cold.The on-the-runs committed or are presumed to have committed crimes for which they would normally expect to be tried. The families have committed no crime. The IRA ex-prisoners have an organisation working to reintegrate them into society. Who is doing anything for the people whom the IRA exiled? When have the Sinn Fein/IRA leaders ever been publicly held to account for what they are doing daily to innocent men, women and children—their own people? We have ample proof from the past that they can stop if they wish.
Although some parts of the Bill are valuable, I cannot but feel that some parts may prove to advance the Sinn Fein/IRA agenda, with the enthusiastic but misguided support of many well-meaning people who are preoccupied with holding the evil state to account in the name of human rights. We should make no further concessions to the Sinn Fein/IRA agenda simply to secure the decommissioning of a few more ancient and irrelevant weapons—long since replaced by new ones.
1.13 p.m.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, the Bill represents another important step by the Government towards implementing their responsibilities under the Belfast agreement. I share with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, the belief that people who supported the Good Friday agreement at the beginning continue to do so. We have had doubts on the way but I still believe that, in the main, that support remains. I hope that that will continue to be the case. It would be a bitter disappointment if faith in the process was lost.
I do not believe that the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, has any evidence that the Government are pushing Northern Ireland into the Republic of Ireland. That was the gist of his remarks. The Government stand fully by their commitment to the people of Northern Ireland—it is they who will decide their future. That is surely a democratic process with which we all concur.
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