| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the noble Lord knows the policy of his party and of the Government that Ireland should be united by consent—that is, that they are in favour of the union of northern and southern Ireland. The noble Lord will be aware that while the IRA stands—as it is allowed to stand—fully armed and organised, it will stand as an enforcer of that policy.
Lord Dubs: No, my Lords. I cannot speak for the Government now but they are totally committed to all the principles of the Belfast agreement which states that the future of Northern Ireland will be determined by the people of Northern Ireland. That is clear, unambiguous and democratic. No amount of
additional gloss of the kind that the noble Lord seeks to put on the matter can detract from the clarity of the Government's position and their integrity.
Lord Dubs: The noble Lord, Lord Laird, regretted that the Committee stage will not be taken on the Floor of the House. The Grand Committee procedure, together with the commitment to further negotiation and discussion made by my noble and learned friend the Lord Privy Seal suggests that your Lordships will have every chance to debate the Bill in full—to say nothing of Report stage and Third Reading. Nothing in the process upon which we are embarking will prevent our having the fullest discussion—more so than in the other place—of all the Bill's details.
If I regret one thing it is that there is no voice of democratic, peaceful nationalism from Northern Ireland in your Lordships' House. Our debates would be made better and fuller if the voice of democratic, peaceful nationalism were heard as part of the process of deliberation here.
I understand how difficult and dangerous the past 30 years have been for all those connected with the judicial system in Northern Ireland. I do not have the direct experience of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, during his term of office, but I am certainly aware of the circumstances under which Northern Ireland judges have to live 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and the close protection that must be afforded to them so that they may continue fulfilling their duties. We owe a tribute to them for having persevered in administering justice as fairly and impartially as possible in difficult circumstances.
The Bill is right because it represents a proper system of criminal justice for a future and peaceful society. Of course, the details are important, but the Bill sets out the way forward. Some terrible things are still happening in Northern Ireland. They are not occurring on the previous scale but there are still unacceptable levels of violence in both the nationalist and loyalist communities. Nevertheless, crime overall in Northern Ireland is lower than in other parts of the United Kingdom—even though it is increasing, partly because of drug-related incidents.
I hope that the Committee and Report stages will not be totally bedevilled by debate on the oath and the coat of arms. I understand why those issues are important and have significance, but I trust that we can take a leaf from the book of the Policing Board which managed to deal with the difficult question of a badge for the Police Service of Northern Ireland in an expeditious, sensible and balanced manner. If the board could do that in the difficult circumstances of arguments about policing, surely it should be possible to achieve the same result in respect of the oath and the coat of arms inside and outside court buildings.
Given the range of important decisions that will stem from the passing of this legislation, will the Government consider an oversight arrangement, possibly in parallel to that proposed by the Patten
commission relating to policing which was also implemented in Northern Ireland? I know that the Criminal Justice Review Group did not make that recommendation but some form of oversight on the Patten precedent may be appropriate. I would also welcome more information as to what the Government see as a timescale for the changes envisaged in the Bill.Many people in Northern Ireland want to know the reasons why sometimes there is no prosecution in relation to a specific crime. I understand the difficulties. If there is no evidence to achieve a successful prosecution, one does not prosecute, and that is normally the case. But concerns have been expressed rather more forcibly in Northern Ireland about some notorious cases where no prosecution resulted. Is there any way in which we can give people more information than has been possible in the past as to why it is not always possible to prosecute? I understand the difficulties. I ask the question simply to see whether we can make progress along that route.
The arrangements for equality in Northern Ireland are very good. They set the pattern for most other countries in the world. But perhaps the agencies and other elements of the criminal justice system ought to be designated as public bodies to bring them within Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act. I believe that that would be appropriate if it were possible.
I am also concerned as to how the judicial appointments commission will achieve a representative judicial system. As a general proposition, that is a laudable aim. But I understand that in a judicial review of the Parades Commission appointments, the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland indicated that the obligation of achieving proper representation related only to religion and identity and not to gender and ethnicity. Would it not be appropriate to extend the provisions to include gender and ethnicity? In my time in Northern Ireland, when I was involved in making appointments to public bodies, I found it easier to obtain a balance between Catholics and Protestants than to get appropriate numbers of women on to bodies. The system did not find it as easy to identify the many capable women in Northern Ireland for such appointments as it should have done. I hope that the situation is improving, but I have doubts. I should like to feel that the judicial appointments commission will take that point on board.
This is a welcome Bill. I look forward to the debates in Committee and on Report.
1.23 p.m.
Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, it is difficult for a person with no legal training to contribute to a debate on the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill. It is also probably foolish. Indeed, late last night I had grave doubts concerning my sanity that I had had the temerity to put my name down for this debate.
Therefore in advance I beg the indulgence of the experts who have taken part in this debate and say that I wish to participate in the debate for three reasons. My family background is that my father was born in
Belfast and received his early education there until intimidation forced his parents to move to Dublin, a move helped greatly by His Majesty's Government as he was able to transfer as a senior civil servant to His Majesty's Customs and Excise in what was to become the Irish Free State. I guess as a result of that I have always been aware of the delicate sensitivities of the Northern Ireland situation, long before the commencement of the problems of 1969.On another level, I have an absolute abhorrence of physical violence and terrorism in all its forms and support any proposal which I think might mitigate the enormous human suffering which both create. And, finally, I believe I am sufficiently unbiased and independent with respect to Northern Ireland to feel that I can make a contribution, or at least ask for clarification on some of the issues raised by this Bill.
At the outset I feel it is only fair to say that I believe we have come a long way along the road to peace in Northern Ireland. But I would like assurances that some of the clauses in this Bill truly acknowledge the sensitivities of that hugely sensitive Province of the United Kingdom. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, that I shall not be referring to the oath or the coat of arms, even though I hold strong personal views on both. I intend to speak on Clauses 22, 23, 56, 70 and 71.
In Part 2 of the Bill the appointment of an attorney-general for Northern Ireland is addressed. The Government are probably right to accept the recommendation of the Criminal Justice Review Group for such an appointment. But though the Explanatory Notes of the Bill state, in paragraph 47 on page 12 that,
- "the effect of subsections (6) to (8) is to disqualify the holder from the post of Attorney General for Northern Ireland from being a member of the House of Commons, the Northern Ireland Assembly or a local authority in Northern Ireland",
- "a member of the Bar in Northern Ireland of at least 10 years' standing, or . . . a solicitor of the Supreme Court of at least 10 years' standing",
As a subsidiary point I should like confirmation from the Minister that the Diplock courts will continue. That point was raised by my noble friend Lady Park. If the answer is yes, will the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland take over the role of Attorney-General for England and Wales as regards scheduled offences?
My second concern relates to Part 4 of the Bill—youth justice—particularly Clauses 56 to 60. I know that that that has been referred to several times today, particularly by my noble friend Lord Glentoran and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton. In the interests of brevity I should like to comment on Clause 56, youth conferences and the youth conferencing plan.
The review group's recommendation sounds admirable, but the Explanatory Notes state on page 26, paragraph 116,
- "A key feature of youth conferences is that neither the child, his parents or guardians, nor the victim can be compelled by any person or the court to participate. In particular the child must agree to a youth conference being held".
Bearing that in mind, do we really think that children will agree to youth conferences being held? Has any survey been conducted into the attitudes of youth towards crime and violence? I would have to be assured that the concept has a chance of success. How confident is the Minister on that point? It is an eminently sensible idea and I am informed that it has been tried in Northumberland and in Oxford. But Northern Ireland is very different. And does it need to be part of a justice Bill?
My third and final point concerns Part 5, Clauses 70 and 71, which again have already been referred to. This is where my earlier point about looking for assurance that some of the clauses in the Bill do truly acknowledge the sensitivities of that enormously sensitive part of the UK. Clause 70 is an admirable expression of intent. But is it an unachievable "wish list"? The Minister told us that a community safety strategy has been published. I regret that I was not aware of that and therefore some of the points I am about to raise may seem stupid. I hope not. But if they are, please forgive me.
The reading of Clause 70 raises questions in my mind. Long before the word "ghetto" sadly became well known to us in the 20th century, ghettos were prevalent throughout Northern Ireland. Nothing much has changed.
Do the Government intend to have local community safety strategies based on large or small geographical areas? Would, for example, the community safety strategy for Londonderry encompass the whole of that city, or would there be a separate one for those areas where the residents call themselves "inhabitants of Derry" and one for those areas where residents call themselves "inhabitants of Londonderry"? How would the Bill when it becomes an Act implement those circumstances?
Clause 71 has made me have uncharacteristically uncharitable thoughts. Is that, as has been suggested by my noble friend Lord Glentoran, another way of enforcing the district police partnerships—the unfinished business of Patten that he referred to—which we thought had been dealt with in the Police (Northern Ireland) Act?
In subsection (1) of Clause 71 carte blanche appears to be given to the Secretary of State to divide Northern Ireland into as many bodies as he thinks fit. In subsection (3), membership of these bodies is another area where he seems to have complete control. In subsection (4)(a) there appears to be no limit imposed on their cost. Research can be fairly costly. I assume that the research will be carried out by professional researchers. In subsection (4)(d) again there is an unqualified financial drain. With regard to subsection (4)(e), annual reports cost money to produce, let alone the time expended in getting them together.
Although it is not on the face of the Bill, I assume that there would be liaison with the large number of voluntary and small community organisations who work "on the ground" and thereby a benefit from the in-depth knowledge at a local level. I should like some assurance on that aspect.
We do not want the local gangsters being put in charge of community safety. But that is what might happen if the report in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times of 14th April is correct. My noble friend Lady Park obviously saw the same report and referred to it. She referred to the organisation set up in 1998 to represent released IRA prisoners and to promote their reintegration into society. That report stated that the organisation is demanding that former IRA prisoners be accommodated in the "senior"—my emphasis—ranks of the police service of Northern Ireland because:
- "Many prisoners are leaders within their community, and it would be inappropriate for them to join as raw recruits".
1.33 p.m.
Lord Hutton: My Lords, I have read the clauses of the Bill with great interest. As I was a judge in Northern Ireland for 18 years, before I became a Member of your Lordships' House, I read with particular interest the clauses relating to the appointment of judges. I would therefore like to make some comments on those clauses.
As your Lordships know, the Bill makes an important change in the system for the appointment of judges in Northern Ireland. In effect the Bill takes away the selection of judges and recommendations as to appointment from the Lord Chancellor, who has performed that function for many years since the establishment of Northern Ireland, and gives the function to the First Minister and the Deputy First
Minister, acting jointly, and to a Judicial Appointments Commission. That will consist of 13 members, with the Lord Chief Justice as the chairman, five judicial members, a barrister, a solicitor and five lay members appointed by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, acting jointly.It is clearly vital that a judge should be appointed on merit alone and that appointments should not be influenced by political considerations. That is all the more important in the highly charged political atmosphere of Northern Ireland. If judges are not appointed on merit the administration of justice will suffer, as will public confidence in that administration.
In considering the changes in the system for judicial appointments set out in the Bill, I suggest that two important and preliminary questions must be asked. The first question is whether the present system under which the Lord Chancellor is responsible for appointments has worked well. If the answer is "Yes", the second question is: why has it worked well?
I think it is generally accepted that the system has worked well. I am very grateful for the generous observations made by noble Lords about the work of the judiciary in Northern Ireland during the past troubled years. It is also accepted by the review body, on whose recommendations the Bill is based, because in paragraph 2.23 the report states that,
- "people generally have a high degree of confidence in the fairness of the system as a whole".
- "77% of the people surveyed expressed confidence in the fairness of judges and magistrates".
If one asks why the appointments system has worked well and provided judges in whom there is a high degree of confidence, the answer is that, through the Lord Chief Justice, the Lord Chancellor consults for their views on candidates those who are the best qualified to assess the merits and qualities of those who seek appointment; namely, the senior judges who have seen before them in the courts the counsel who may be appointed. Now, quite rightly, the views of the chairman of the Bar Counsel and the president of the Law Society are also taken.
This is the view taken by the Lord Chancellor himself with regard to the appointment of judges in England. The system of appointment in England is similar to that in Northern Ireland. As your Lordships know, there is now an annual report by the Lord Chancellor's Department on judicial appointments. Paragraph 1.23 of the report for 1998-1999 states:
- "The Lord Chancellor regards the knowledge, experience and judgment of the professional legal community (serving judges and members of the legal profession) as the best available source of informed assessments of the suitability of applicants for judicial appointments".
- "there is no better advertisement for the judicial appointments system than the quality of the judges appointed".
Under the changes set out in the Bill, the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, at the present time a unionist and a nationalist, who are two very active politicians, will have a very important part to play in appointments. They will also appoint the lay members of the Judicial Appointments Commission. There is bound to be some concern that political considerations will come into play in making appointments.
In paragraph 6.16 of its report the review body recognised why judicial appointments were made the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor and were not given to Northern Ireland Ministers. It states:
- "Since 1973 the Lord Chancellor has been responsible for making or advising on all judicial appointments in Northern Ireland . . . We understand that the transfer of these responsibilities to the Lord Chancellor was driven mainly by a desire to secure and demonstrate the independence of judicial matters from any political office that was closely associated with political and security developments in Northern Ireland".
The new arrangements set out in the Bill give rise to a further question: what is the purpose and function of the lay members of the Judicial Appointments Commission? They will not constitute a majority of the commission but will form a substantial part of its membership. Clause 5(8) rightly provides that judicial appointments,
- "must be made solely on the basis of merit".
- "if judges and/or senior lawyers predominate on a commission, then there is the danger that they might tend to appoint in their own image. On the other hand a predominance of lay people could detract from the critical importance of legal ability in assessing merit".
- "The lay members would be selected on the basis of the additional value which they would bring to the Commission's deliberations, including such qualities as experience of selection processes, the court users' perspective and the ability to assess the personal qualities of candidates".
Indeed, in the paragraph to which I referred, the review body recognises the risk that there may be compromise appointments. The lawyers may think highly of one candidate; the lay members may not be impressed by his performance in interview and oppose his appointment. There is a risk that they will compromise on another person.
The review body accepts that the present system works well. So why has it recommended a change? It is apparent in the report that there are two principal reasons. The first is that because there is now devolved government in Northern Ireland—and will, no doubt, be increased devolution of matters to Northern Ireland—it is appropriate that the selection of judges should be devolved to a Northern Ireland administration. That view overlooks the fact that for many years—from 1921 to 1972—there was a devolved government and a local Parliament in Northern Ireland, when the selection of the senior judiciary was retained by the Lord Chancellor. The retention of applicants by the Lord Chancellor is therefore not inconsistent with devolved government.
The review body refers to Scotland, which has also been referred to in our debate. But Scotland is not really comparable to Northern Ireland, because the Lord Chancellor never had responsibility for judicial appointments in Scotland. Moreover, although there are no doubt differences of political opinion in Scotland, they are not as sharply held as they are in Northern Ireland.
The second reason that the review body gives for its recommendation is the need for transparency—noble Lords have also referred to this. Transparency is important but, as has happened, greater transparency can be achieved by the appointment of a Judicial Appointments Commissioner, who will not be concerned with selection of judges, but who will oversee the process to ensure that it is fairly carried out and who can make representations and furnish an annual report. That is what has happened in England. A judicial commissioner has been appointed in this jurisdiction and the Lord Chancellor has also appointed a commissioner in Northern Ireland.
In his foreword to last year's report from his department, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor refers to the appointment of the commissioner and his deputies. He states:
- "They will exercise a fully independent role advising me on any aspect of the appointments process they choose. I welcome the establishment of this Commission which, as Sir Leonard said, will add an important new independent dimension to the system, providing additional credibility and confidence".
Therefore, while accepting the principle of transparency, there is at present in Northern Ireland a system that has worked well and is similar to the system that applies in England. I venture to suggest that it would be appropriate to give further consideration to the change to the system of judicial appointments set out in the Bill.
1.47 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I am grateful for all of the contributions that have been made to the debate. It illustrates that when, as today, we have the opportunity, without pressure from competing business, we are able fully to deal with all the issues in an important Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked for reassurance on the question of the oath of judicial office, which is to be found at Clause 19. It states: "I"—and then the name is to be filled in—
- "do swear that I will well and faithfully serve in the office of"—
- "and that I will do right to all manner of people without fear or favour, affection or ill-will according to the laws and usages of this realm".
The noble Lord asked about district police partnerships in the context of the community safety proposals. The district police partnerships are a model designed to hold the police to account. It is therefore appropriate to include local elected representatives. The community safety areas require a different membership. We need to look to representatives from all the main statutory agencies that can contribute to community safety. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, of course there would be consultation with voluntary agencies, which are so important in that context.
The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, spoke about what he thought was a contradictory allocation of responsibilities in the Bill. Plainly, we will need to examine that matter in Grand Committee.
The noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Lord Rogan, raised a similar point on Clause 45(1). I accept that that list is not exhaustive or intended to be. My colleague Mr Browne is consulting with a range of organisations at present to see whether it would be appropriate to include them. In particular, the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, mentioned organisations such as Consignia, the Police Ombudsman and the Inland Revenue.
I am grateful for the general approach of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, which he said was one of warm welcome. I agree with him that one needs to be extremely careful about the subtle responsibilities of an attorney-general and a director of public prosecutions. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and I were both Attorneys-General. I must say that I was surprised on my first day in the office when I realised that I was Attorney-General for Northern Ireland as well as for England and Wales. It seems to me that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, was right in saying that there was complete independence and impartiality in the conduct of the director's office through the 25 to 30 years of which he spoke. I do not believe that it was ever suggested or contemplated that there should ever be any political interference by the Attorney-General. I share the noble and learned Lord's recollection that there was
never any attempt to make a direction, although it was within the statutory power of the Attorney to make such a direction.
The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, and several noble Lords spoke about symbols. I understand their value and their significance and the way that they resonate. But ultimately symbols are creatures for man's purpose and they should not be allowed to overwhelm the discussion of an extremely serious Bill. As my noble friend Lord Dubs said, they are important, but there is much in the Bill which is capable of being of lasting significance and improvement in the life of Northern Ireland.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page