| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way. I hope he will understand that on this issue it is what the symbols symbolise which many of us regard as important, not the symbols themselves.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, of course I take that point. However, I remain of the view that symbols are there to serve man's purpose, not to dictate the ultimate outcome. The reason I hoped that I was responding to the noble Lord's point was the trouble I took to read out the oath. Any judge who is able to discharge the obligations of that oath will have done noble duty in his judicial capacity.
The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, asked about costs. We are talking of an additional cost of the order of £30 million over the next three years. In Part 1, setting up the office of lay magistrates will cost about £2.2 million. The judicial appointments commission, which I stress will be established only after the devolution of the justice functions, will cost about £1 million a year. The present DPP's office—I was grateful for the support given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, to the divorce between investigation and prosecution, which was mentioned also by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney—will need to double in size if it is to do its work properly. It has been stretched and strained in the past. That will cost about £13 million. The annual cost of maintaining the local attorney-general and his staff after devolution will be about £0.5 million.
Part 3 relates to the law commission and the chief inspector of criminal justice, costing £0.75 million and £0.55 million respectively. Part 4, relating to youth justice orders, will cost about £0.65 million. The youth conferencing agency will cost £3.5 million. The inclusion of 17 year-olds, which has been generally welcomed in the youth courts, will cost in the order of £1.2 million. The most significant cost in Part 5—the establishment of the community safety partnerships—is over £6 million. That is the general breakdown for which the noble Lord asked.
The noble Lord, Lord Molyneaux, spoke of the hiring and firing of judges. In the context of Clause 2, to which the noble Lord referred, it is very important to bear in mind that subsection (3) states:
- "No order under subsection (2) may be made without the agreement of the Lord Chief Justice".
The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, was courteous and calm, as usual—always a dangerous sign. He will forgive me when I say—it is not meant in any disagreeable sense—that that is particularly so when he effortlessly produces an individual mixture of calm and hyperbole. I shall deal with the hyperbole first. It is all the more effective on the surface because it seems to be calmly expressed.
The noble Lord said, rolling his eyes and asking the metaphorical question, "The Lord Privy Seal does not know about the contents of what was decommissioned". Of course he does not—because the scheme requires that I do not. Therefore let us nail that one straightaway, shall we? I shall condescend to fact, which is always tedious upon these occasions.
There is a document in the public domain, Independent International Commission on Decommissioning, and it is dated 8th April this year. It is signed by John de Chastelain and Andrew D. Sens. It is addressed to Dr John Reid and the Minister of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the Republic of Ireland. It states:
- "We wish to inform you that we have witnessed an event in which the IRA leadership has put a varied and substantial quantity of ammunition, arms and explosive material beyond use".
- "a varied and substantial quantity of ammunition, arms and explosive material beyond use. In accordance with the Government's Scheme and Regulations"—
- "we have made an inventory of the arms concerned, which we will provide to the two governments when our task is completed. As before, we have agreed to the IRA's condition of confidentiality regarding details of this event, as provided for in the same Scheme and Regulations".
The second piece of hyperbole, which I know the noble Lord will reflect on and regret, is that this is a dog's dinner of a Bill and his comment, "I want no part of it". Not everyone in this House agrees with everything I say, but everyone who has spoken in this House says that there is an enormous amount of good material in the Bill which is capable of contributing to social reconstruction in that unhappy part of the United Kingdom.
The noble Lord, Lord Rogan, spoke of symbols and understandably of the suspicions some have. Someone said, partly in jest, that it is difficult to find a non-political person in Northern Ireland. That is not so in my experience. There are admirable public servants there against whom the taint of the allegation of being political has never, so far as I know, been sustained. Perhaps I may take two examples almost at random. The present DPP, Sir Alasdair Fraser, the former DPP, Sir Barry Shaw, and until recently the Chief Constable in Northern Ireland. I am not saying that everyone agrees with every view they expressed, but no one said that they were political creatures. Nor could they reasonably do so.
I was grateful to my noble friend Lady Goudie for her commendation of the law commission. That is another excellent reform in the context of Northern Ireland legislation. She spoke of the very effective work and the noble Lords, Lord Laird and Lord Rogan, spoke of the extremely impressive work done in England on restorative justice in Highgate and in Thames Valley, which was a very successful pioneering scheme.
As always, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew of Twysden, made a statesmanlike speech. He correctly identified the fact that we are making a journey of faith and hope, not one of certainty. He spoke also of the sacrifices that the judiciary at all levels have made in Northern Ireland. Both he and I will remember seeing the very sad but eloquent tablet in the Law Courts in Belfast. It is a cautionary experience to read it because we forget sacrifice much too quickly.
My noble friend Lady Crawley posed a question about resources with which I hope I have dealt in my response giving the particular details for which the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, asked.
I wish to endorse what was said by my noble friend Lord Dubs. If we work together in a Grand Committee, then I believe that it will prove to be an ideal forum for this type of Bill. There is a vast amount of detail to consider. That venue will allow us to have a dialogue with officials readily available to deal with questions as they are legitimately raised, rather than in the somewhat inconvenient way that we work in this Chamber. Furthermore, of course we shall have a full Report stage and a Third Reading.
The speech made by my noble friend Lady Ramsay of Cartvale was moving and, if I may say with respect, very much to the point. The noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, asked about the Diplock courts, as did the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. The recent review made it quite plain that their continuation is necessary and so they will continue for as long as they are necessary. In that context, I am glad that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hutton, is in his place, not least because he called me to the Bar in Northern Ireland and gave me Silk all in the space of about five minutes. It was a happy experience both to be called and to take Silk in the same few minutes.
Northern Ireland is different now and, obviously, better in many ways. What I can say about the Diplock courts is that I am a member of the Bar over there. I think that I have spoken to lawyers, solicitors and barristers from every conceivable community background in Northern Ireland. Not one of them has ever suggested to me for a second that the Diplock courts are anything other than absolutely transparently fair. They have the advantage of having to give written reasons. Those written reasons can be challenged on appeal and, I have to say, on some occasions, when reading the judgments which have led to acquittals, I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, would probably agree with me that perhaps he and I might both have guessed that a jury might well have convicted. As long as the courts are necessary, we shall continue with them.
My noble friend Lord Dubs asked about the general time-scale. The funding resources to which I have already referred relate to a three-year period and of course there will not be devolution of the two distinct areas until following May 2003, when the Secretary of State will have to come to his judgment.
My noble friend Lord Dubs also asked a question about giving reasons for not prosecuting. I agree that people are troubled when prosecutions are not pursued, but I have to say that, from my own experience, sometimes it is simply not possible to give a true reason for not prosecuting. Perhaps I may cite an example. A girl of 15 makes a complaint of rape. She is interviewed by a properly trained woman detective constable. The girl has complained to her father. The complaint goes into the system and is properly and scrupulously dealt with in a civilised way. But at the end of the interview, the girl says, "Actually, I wasn't raped, but I was afraid that I was pregnant and what my father would say". In those circumstances it is not possible to give a reason to the father.
Giving reasons is a very good idea in principle, and sometimes it can be achieved. However, in the Northern Ireland context—this is a point I have discussed frequently with the Director of Public Prosecutions—how can the DPP give written reasons saying that the witness is afraid, that the witness has been suborned and that the witness has been terrified? That would expose that very witness to further danger. I simply caution noble Lords to consider that what may sound good in principle—and it is—is sometimes difficult to deliver in practice.
Turning to Section 75 in the context of equality, my noble friend Lord Dubs made a good point. Of course he knows from his experience as a Northern Ireland Minister that the categories covered are able to be amended by order.
I have dealt with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, about the Diplock courts because it was also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth. I have also dealt with the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Park, on whether voluntary organisations would be consulted. The question of the division of areas has yet to be decided, but when I have further material then of course I shall revert to that issue.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hutton, gave his informed view—for which we were all grateful—in the context of the protection of an independent judiciary. I echo what he said. It is good to see and appropriate to have recorded in Clause 5(8) that:
- "The selection of a person . . . to be appointed, or recommended for appointment, to an office [namely, a judicial office] must be made solely on the basis of merit".
Once again, I am grateful for all the contributions that have been made to our debate. I look forward to working co-operatively on this Bill, given that the interests of Northern Ireland are greater than any of our individual interests.
On Question, Bill read a second time.
2.6 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be committed to a Grand Committee.
Moved, That the Bill be committed to a Grand Committee.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page