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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am not acquainted with the figures that the noble Lord gave for the amount of maintenance required. However, as he knows, the Government are providing over £30 billion for local road maintenance over the time-scale of the 10-year transport plan. That is £9 billion above the funding level for the previous 10 years. There is an important issue to deal with there.
As the noble Lord knows, there are lane rentals and there is overcharging, both of which are designed to improve co-ordination and reduce disruption as much as possible. That gets at some of the offenders. It is important that co-ordination improves and that the Government should set out examples of good practice and put pressure on local authorities to improve standards.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the difficulties is that the roadworks are there, causing disruption, but there is nobody doing any work? Sometimes, I think that workmen on those sites are an endangered species or a collector's item. Can we find a way of ensuring that, when the necessary roadworks are there, people get on with it?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, like my noble friend, I have seen such roadworks on many occasions. Pressure should be put on, and there should be a sense that the works must be done in the most efficient way possible, as quickly as possible. Otherwise, people get utterly fed up.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords—
The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn): My Lords, this is a constitutional occasion. The noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil, always asks a question about holes in the road.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, as always, I am deeply obliged to the noble and learned Lord.
I thank my noble friend Lord Geddes for raising the matter. Is the Minister aware that such efforts as I have been able to make to diminish this important nuisance have, so far, had the notable but totally unwelcome effect of stimulating those responsible into digging more holes and leaving them unoccupied for longer than ever before? Can the Minister advise me on what I can do to persuade the Government to join the right side—for once—and attempt to curb that increasing nuisance?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, most of my oral briefing on the question related to the gargantuan efforts made by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil, to deal with the problem.
What can be done about it? The more the issue is kept to the fore, the more pressure there is on the people engaged, the local authorities and the utilities to do the work as quickly and efficiently as possible.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, bus operators are summoned increasingly frequently before the traffic commissioners to explain the unreliability of their service. Will the Minister ensure that local authorities are also summoned to explain what they are doing about roadworks and other causes of unreliability, such as traffic congestion?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, like other noble Lords, I share the noble Lord's concern that local authorities are major players in the extent to which roads are disrupted. I will pass on the noble Lord's suggestion as regards delays in relation to local bus companies.
Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, while sympathising with the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, is not the real answer to his question that if he is in a hole he should stop digging?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I sympathise with that advice.
Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: My Lords, will the Minister accept that not only are we talking about a nuisance but that once again motorists are being treated with contempt by the Government and those responsible? No one ever gives advice on where the works are being carried on and stopping traffic. It is not necessary to provide printed notices: all that is required is a blackboard and a piece of chalk to put a notice on public display in the right place and at the right time.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I do not believe that the Government are displaying any contempt towards motorists. However, I entirely agree that notice is important. It is important to inform people about what is happening, why and how long it will take.
Baroness Platt of Writtle: My Lords, does the Minister agree that roadworks cause traffic jams, which do not help the greener environment but cause pollution? We need to get that message across to the public in general and to the local authorities in particular so that they do not set up so many roadworks at the same time.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I agree that roadworks almost invariably cause traffic congestion and that that is bad for a variety of reasons, including the pollution it causes. However, we are introducing charges for over-running the timetable and lane rentals in order to try to reduce what we all agree is a terrible problem.
Lord Rotherwick: My Lords, does the Minister agree that in Oxfordshire at present twice as many deaths are caused by pollution coming mainly from traffic as are caused by road accidents?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I was not aware of the figures in relation to Oxfordshire.
Foot and Mouth: Legality of Cull
2.52 p.m.
The Duke of Montrose asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether the contiguous cull in the face of the foot and mouth outbreak was legal, was approved by the European Union and was tested in the courts; and whether veterinary resources to deal with the outbreak were the same as they were in 1997.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, the contiguous cull was legal and was carried out using powers contained in the Animal Health Act 1981. The European Commission was at all times aware of the UK's culling policy and approved of the approach. The operation of the cull was tested and upheld in the English and Scottish courts.
The number of permanent veterinary staff at the beginning of the outbreak was broadly similar in 1997. Following confirmation of foot and mouth disease in 2001 the department moved rapidly to deploy additional veterinary resources.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Animal Health Act 1981, which he cited, begins by stating that the Minister may, if he thinks fit, in any case cause to be slaughtered various animals and it goes on to list the categories in which the power may be exercised? Does that not imply that if in legal terms he is to be reasonable and in compliance with the Wednesbury rules on evidence, particular circumstances must be considered in each case? If that is so, how can he take the Westerhall and Winslade judgments, which the judges admit were considered on particular evidence, to apply to the blanket three-kilometre cull?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the Question was about the contiguous cull and the Scottish judges included the three-kilometre cull. On the two occasions when the contiguous cull was tested in the courts it was upheld. There was no challenge to the general operation of the cull; therefore, all precedent indicates that the cull was legal.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the most important aspect is that he has powers to act quickly and so contain the outbreak? Does he have those powers now?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the Animal Health Act 1981 provides a number of powers which the Minister can use. There are some gaps in those powers which were brought to the attention of the House at the time of the the Animal Health Bill but regrettably the House rejected the proposed remedy. There is therefore some gap in our armoury.
Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, with respect to the third part of my noble friend's question about the shortage of veterinary personnel at the outbreak of the recent epidemic, will the Minister consider setting up an organisation, similar to the Territorial Army, of reserved trained veterinarians drawn from retired personnel from the ministry, practices and universities to supply that manpower need when an emergency such as the recent foot and mouth outbreak demands it?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, there is already such an arrangement. We were able to deploy 2,500 temporary veterinary inspectors during the course of the disease
and had the help of a further 650 people from overseas. However, as the noble Lord implies, it may be sensible to put that on a more formal and mechanistic basis. We will be examining the matter in the course of the current inquiries into the conduct of the disease.
Lord Brookman: My Lords, does the Minister believe that it is now appropriate to put on record the sterling work of the veterinary service and others in the profession who in difficult circumstances did a first-class job on behalf of the British people?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I thoroughly agree with my noble friend. I believe that the whole House will endorse what he says. In very difficult circumstances, sometimes subject to serious local pressures and criticisms, the men and women of the State Veterinary Service performed an absolutely sterling job, as did those who were temporarily deployed to tackle the horrendous disease.
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