House of Lords
Thursday, 9th May 2002.
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Guildford.
Government Functions: Dispersal
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What plans they have to transfer more government work from London and the South East to other parts of the United Kingdom with lower employment opportunities.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, individual departments and agencies are free to make their own decisions about location and facilities on the basis of operational requirements and value for money. However, the existing dispersal of many Civil Service functions across the UK has worked well, and the Government believe that the administration of public service benefits from that national and regional diversity. The Government will continue to keep the matter under serious consideration and review.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. In the past, governments faced with problems of recruitment and retention and housing shortages for civil servants have been prepared to undertake major reviews to identify blocks of work that could be shifted to the provinces to ease those problems. Have the Government considered doing that? If not, why not?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord is right to say that, in the past, there were fundamental reviews. There has been a marked shift away from Civil Service employment in London and the South East region since 1976. The Government take such matters seriously, and I have no doubt that the noble Lord will be encouraged by some of the comments contained in today's White Paper on the development of our regions. We keep the matter under careful review all the time.
Lord Elliott of Morpeth: My Lords, does the Minister agree that modern communications technology has substantially removed the old distance problem? Does he also agree—I am sure that he will—that the North East benefited enormously from the movement by government and business to that region during a period of severe industrial change?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord has anticipated my reply: we recognise those benefits. Modern communications make it much easier for outposts and departments located in other parts of the country to connect with headquarters departments
located at the centre. There are economic benefits to be had from a policy of dispersal; those benefits have been widely appreciated over the past 25 years.
Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the slowness of British Telecom in taking broadband technology to rural parts of England and Wales is a serious inhibition to the transfer of high-value employment to those regions? Will the Government take steps to kick BT into spreading broadband technology at a faster rate?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the noble Lord has made an interesting contribution to the debate, even if he went a little wider than the Question. I am sure that what he said is relevant, and we take careful account of such matters.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, there was a row over the establishment of the national cattle traceability centre in Cumberland in 1998, when civil servants opposed the move. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker—then an agriculture Minister—overturned the recommendation made by the civil servants and moved the centre to Cumbria. Does not that show that, sometimes, civil servants' objections must simply be overruled?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the wisdom of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is widely appreciated in the House. I am sure that he was entirely right in what he did. Of course, operational considerations must be assessed in making such important decisions.
Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the state of the regional economies varies considerably? There is overheating in the South East and spare capacity in other regions. Although the RDAs and the proposals for regional government may be welcome for many reasons, one of the consequences of that policy is that every region looks to maximise its own growth. There is a lack of co-ordination in the dispersal of government functions throughout the country, and little thought is given at the centre of government to balancing regional economies.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I cannot agree that there is a lack of co-ordination. Our policies demonstrate that we are well co-ordinated. The noble Lord made the important point that regions are keen to promote themselves and ensure, rightly, that they get a fair share of the action and a fair slice of the cake.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, does the Minister remember that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, asked, "Why not?", in his supplementary question? The Minister does not appear to have answered the question.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I thought that I had answered the question. I apologise to your Lordships' House if I have not. My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe made an important point
about a matter that the Government consider carefully, in the light of operational needs and the pressures on each department.
The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, notwithstanding the Minister's assurance that the matter is kept assiduously under review, is it not the case that, on 9th January, the Deputy Prime Minister insisted that,
- "no assessment has been made,"
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, my reply was not inconsistent with that. I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister was speaking wisely, as he does at all times.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, will not the proposals in today's White Paper make it more difficult to disperse work to different parts of the country? Each part that has a regional assembly, including London, will jealously guard its own employment.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, reading the runes of government policy is something that we all do. In the light of the debate about regionalism and the importance of the regions, the noble Lord must reflect that the announcements made today will probably make things easier, rather than harder.
Consolidation Bills
3.13 p.m.
Lord Renton asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Which consolidation Bills will be considered by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills before 31st July this year.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): My Lords, the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills considered the European Parliamentary Elections Bill on 30th April. That will be the only consolidation Bill to be introduced before the Summer Recess. But the Government have also introduced legislation like the Land Registration Bill and support projects like the Tax Law Rewrite Project, which modernise legislation and bring it together in one Act, even though they are not pure consolidations.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply so far as it goes. Will the Government persuade the Joint Committee to undertake much more consolidation? We should bear in mind the fact that Acts of Parliament which have been amended by other Acts are difficult for people to understand,
including judges. For that reason, lack of consolidation leads to longer and more expensive cases in the courts.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, certainly I endorse what the noble Lord says with regard to the importance of consolidation. Indeed, in 1975 the noble Lord was himself one of the prime movers in highlighting that as an issue. Quite rightly, the noble Lord continues to draw attention to the problem today.
The importance of consolidation has not changed, but there are now many more ways in which people can keep up to date. Not the least of those is the fact that our legislation is now available online so that references can be made with the greatest of ease. Judges currently sitting in our courts are perhaps a little more familiar with IT procedures than they were in the past.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that there is a great need to consolidate a number of Bills dealing with environmental issues? I do not believe that any attempt has been made at consolidation since 1981. Recently we have passed a number of new Acts, making it extremely difficult for NGOs to understand the legislation. Will my noble friend look at this problem? Not only is it time consuming and confusing for people outside; it is also very expensive.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I have been happy to accept that consolidation in general is a consummation devoutly to be wished. However, priority has to be given to legislation which forms a part of the Government's agenda and is of the greatest importance to the citizens of our country. When one looks at matters of consolidation in relation to other issues, one can see that priority has been given to the correct kinds of legislation, certainly in this Session and every Session since 1997.
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