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Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way. Does he accept that it is extremely unlikely that a unitary authority would end up as a county? A unitary authority is a unitary authority and a county is a county. To try to pretend that a county would become a unitary authority seems to me to be
utterly ridiculous if I may say so. I believe that the Minister confirms what I said; namely, that county councils will be abolished.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, no doubt the bodies concerned will attach the importance they see fit to those opinions of the noble Baroness. The Isle of Wight and Shropshire are two areas with unitary counties. The noble Baroness also asked whether the Government would envisage a review of local government before such a change is proposed. The part of the Statement that I have just read out makes the position absolutely clear. As regards estimates of costs, I believe that the noble Baroness asked about the costs of an assembly and the costs of any local government reorganisation. As regards the costs of running an assembly, we would envisage a sum in the region of £25 million per annum. However, I am not in a position to give any realistic estimate of the costs of any reform of local government connected with that as I do not know what the reorganisation would involve.
The noble Baroness asked whether the grant would be top-sliced from local government. The answer is "No". No review of the Barnett formula is envisaged. As regards whether it would be possible for any region with its own elected assembly to have direct relations with the European Union, the body which has relations with the European Union is obviously the United Kingdom. That is the constitutional position. There may be representative bodies in various towns where activities are carried out by the European Union but the body that relates to the European Union will continue to be the United Kingdom, as is the case in relation to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked a number of questions. However, many of them concerned advice. I accept them in the good spirit in which they were offered. I believe that she asked whether the powers of assemblies would be token or strategic. That is what I have written down. As the Statement made clear, they would have power to determine the strategic direction of the region. In addition, they would have specific powers to deliver on their strategies. I gave some examples of that. More detail on that matter is contained in the White Paper.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, also asked whether the power would flow down from central government or up from local government. The power will flow down from central government. The question of whether assemblies would have power over quangos in the regions will depend on the quango concerned. I draw the noble Baroness's attention to the fact that assemblies would have power over RDAs, which are perhaps among the most significant bodies in a region. She asked whether government would keep their hands off regional issues. That is a slightly rhetorical question. Surely a White Paper that is designed to devolve down from Whitehall and Westminster to regions, whether or not they have elected regional assemblies, is a strong indication of a Government who are keen on genuine decentralisation.
The Government are, of course, prepared to learn from existing experience. One of the issues that we need to debate is that of the size of regional assemblies. The noble Baroness drew attention to the problems of the London Assembly in that regard. As regards shadow running, obviously sensible arrangements must be made for the setting up of any elected regional assembly once a referendum indicates that it is wanted. Scrutiny powers need to be effective and will have to be debated. The noble Baroness drew attention to scrutiny powers in relation to budgets. I believe she said that the only power that was available was in effect to veto the whole budget. We shall need to consider that matter.
Access to information is incredibly important for any government or legislative body. The proposal that legislation should involve a framework is plainly right. I believe that the noble Baroness was referring to the setting up of the assembly's legislation, not the referendum assembly. That will come only after legislation implementing the referendum procedure and after a referendum had voted "Yes". We should then move on to that legislation.
The noble Baroness's point about the need to address the relationship between government and the regional assembly was of course correct. That will be a very important relationship. She concluded by offering the proposal her good wishes, for which I am very grateful.
4.10 p.m.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, does the Minister realise that in the North West, following the abolition of the county councils, having wholly unitary local government would be an appalling piece of constitutional vandalism? Can he not see that in the North West a combination of unitary authorities and a regional government would be bound to be dominated by Merseyside and Manchester, and that that would mean that the voice of those living in small towns and the countryside would be completely extinguished? People outside the conurbations would get nothing but hefty bills, fewer fields and more concrete.
What on earth is all this nonsense on page three of the Statement about the people of the English regions having the same choice given to them as has been given to the people of Scotland? Regional government will be expensive, but the noble and learned Lord knows perfectly well that it does not involve the devolution of powers that are remotely similar to powers that have been devolved to Scotland. It really is ridiculous and insulting to pretend that the proposals are an English answer to Scottish devolution.
Lord Bridges: My Lords, if the move to—
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I apologise. On the noble Lord's first proposition—he referred to constitutional vandalism—I disagree. On whether
there should be an elected regional assembly, that will be a matter for the region to decide in a referendum. Before it makes its decision in that regard, the precise consequences relating to local government will be known because the proposals require that the Boundary Committee has made its recommendations for bringing unitary authorities into being. People will know before they vote what the precise consequences in relation to local government are.On the comparison between Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the proposals involve, for those regions that vote for them, the opportunity to have significant decentralisation of power from Whitehall and Westminster. There are people in north-west and north-east England—and in other regions—who believe that it is better that some of those important issues should be dealt with at a reasonable level, which is closer to where they live than Whitehall and Westminster.
I should correct an error that I made earlier. I said that Shropshire was a unitary authority but I should have referred to Herefordshire. I was wrong in what I said and I apologise for that.
Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I welcome the Government's proposals to give the choice to English regions to repair their democratic deficit. Given that the Government have evolved different structures for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and London, and differing proposals, including precepting for the English regions, which may not in the event prove adequate, will they consider building into primary legislation the power further to decentralise responsibilities and powers to the proposed assemblies, as is indicated in paragraph 4.50 of the White Paper?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for his welcome. He, more than practically anyone else in the House, has experience of giving choice to those parts of the United Kingdom that want devolved assemblies. His views on this matter carry particular weight. I note his proposal, which we shall certainly consider.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, as someone who lives in the North West and who has been a passionate supporter of regional government for most of the past 50 years, I find it difficult to be enthusiastic about the White Paper. It is a good example of the fact that if one gives the Government a good idea, they will make a mess of it.
Will the Government look again at the proposed electoral system? It is paraded as being proportional representation but it is no such thing; it involves semi-proportional representation at best. In regions such as the North West and the North East, it is likely to produce a permanent majority for the Labour Party.
Will the Government look again at the proposed size of the assemblies? I refer not to political representation but to the representation of a large and diverse region such as the North West, which has a larger population than that in Scotland. The Minister
said in the Statement that people in Liverpool deserve to have a voice. However, the people in places such as Carlisle—and even in Silloth, Nelson and Colne—deserve to have a voice. Under the proposals Cumbria would at best have perhaps two representatives. Is the proposal a recipe in the North West for permanent rule by the regional Labour Party mafia?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I disagree with that proposition. It is important to have broad political representation in the assembly. The noble Lord knows better than I do that if we seek to reach agreement—a broad consensus—on the precise form of the electoral system to be used, we should, unfortunately, never be able to do so; that is because, in relation to what is the best system, the issues and differences are so detailed, complex and wide. In Scotland, Wales and London we used the additional member system of proportional representation to elect Members of the Parliament and the Assemblies. On balance, we have decided to use the same system for English regional assemblies because we believe that it would produce broad political representation in those regional assemblies, as it did in the bodies to which I referred in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland.
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