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The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords—

Lord Woolmer of Leeds: My Lords—

Noble Lords: Bishop!

The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, if my good friend the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham were here, he would warmly welcome the publication of the White Paper. He has been active in seeking to give voice to the north-east region. That is an example of the fact that, for all the diverse responses that will happen throughout the country, the voluntary sector and the Churches are already actively engaged in that process.

I press the Minister on those proposals and the report. In the south-east of England, from Oxfordshire right round to Kent, I do not think that we shall be rushing for a regional assembly. Nevertheless, regionalisation has drawn the voluntary sector and the faith communities—I chair a faith forum—into the process. I want to hear a little more from the Minister on the future role when we formalise those arrangements in the legislation. We struggle, if I may say so, with the public sector sometimes in getting real roles in the democratic process for the voluntary sector and the faith communities. It is good to be consulted but the word "partnership" needs to have some substance to it. In the coming weeks, how do the Government intend to draw us into the consultation exercise in relation to that aspect of the report?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his welcome to the proposals and for suggesting that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham would welcome them

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equally strongly. I pay tribute to the Church for the part that it has played in developing these proposals and earlier proposals in relation to devolution, such as devolution in Scotland—the Church played a considerable part in that regard.

We are completely serious about the commitment to having a true partnership with the voluntary sector and faith communities. In the weeks and months to come, we need to work out precisely how that is to be done. That means proper, real consultation with faith communities, among others, on how that should be done as we develop the proposals.

Lord Woolmer of Leeds: My Lords, does the Minister recognise that people in Yorkshire and Humber welcome the opportunity to demonstrate their desire to play a major part in developing and running their own region? Does he recognise that they will judge the proposals by the extent to which power is devolved from the centre to the regions? Will he elaborate on the powers relating to health, education and transport? I note that the power to allocate funding in those areas appears not to be in the Government's mind.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the proposals will be welcomed not only in Yorkshire and Humber but also in other regions throughout the country as a genuine opportunity to devolve power down from Westminster and Whitehall to the regions, where, rightly, many, many issues should be decided.

So far as concerns transport, health and education, the proposals do not envisage the distribution of a substantial amount of funds to those three areas. But they do involve the elected regional assemblies playing a significant part in the development of strategies in those areas. However, in areas such as housing, it is envisaged that the elected regional assembly will have funds at its disposal.

Lord Biffen: My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is a deep sense of cynicism about public life and politics at all levels in this country? Is he also aware that, unless the proposals that he is bringing forward are widely acclaimed and successfully effected, they will add to that sense of disillusion, to our political danger?

In that context, can he tell us a little more about what he means by the term "social identity"? Perhaps I may tell him that there is no social identity between Shropshire, Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Coventry. There is, in fact, a great danger throughout England that the rural areas will feel increasingly neglected by the processes of the Government. That anxiety will be intensified if we find that the rural areas are simply being attached to major urban areas, which are at the core of the new regional arrangements. As I am certain that it is not the

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intention of the Government to add to social discontent but rather to ameliorate it, can he assure me that he will take that into account?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I believe that there is cynicism in relation to politics in some parts of the country. Part of that cynicism comes from a lack of connection or a remoteness between the governed and those who govern. In those circumstances, we believe that giving regions the option—I make it absolutely clear that it is an option—of regional government is a sensible way to increase the connection by seeking, where a region wants it, to decentralise power from Whitehall and Westminster. It will happen only where a region wants it and only where the region is aware, before the decision is made in a referendum, what the effect will be on the local government arrangements. We consider that to be a sensible and fair approach. We also believe that it is a way in which to increase, rather than decrease, people's faith in politics.

The noble Lord asked me to take into account what he said. Of course, every contribution will be taken into account.

Lord Bridges: My Lords, if the move to regional government is to be made on a voluntary basis, as appears to be the case from the noble and learned Lord's last remarks, and if it is not intended to guarantee the destruction of the counties, as appears to be the case from his exchange with the noble Baroness opposite, does it not follow that, at the end of these changes, there will be no uniform pattern of local government in this country? There will simply be a patchwork of one form of government in one part of the country and another form in another part. Will that not be extremely confusing both for central Government and for the nation as a whole?

Does the Minister agree that this calls to mind the image of a celebrated drawing by the artist, Edward Lear? He produced a beautiful drawing of an imaginary plant with people in odd postures hanging from it. Its title was "Manypeeplia Upsidownia". Is that not the direction in which we are heading?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, it would be right to say that at present the nature of local government is a rather complicated patchwork with unitary and two-tier arrangements. Noble Lords may remember the previous government's response to the Banham review. That government abolished six metropolitan county areas.

I am finding it difficult to make myself heard due to the remarks being made from a sedentary position by a former Secretary of State for the Environment, whose responsibilities included local government.

There is a patchwork at present. We also recognise that different arrangements will apply in different parts of the country. We see that in relation to parts of the United Kingdom where devolution has already occurred. We also envisage the possibility that different arrangements will apply throughout England. We fully recognise the possibility that some areas will want a regional assembly and some will not.

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However, we believe that that is the right way to approach the issue; namely, if regions, fully knowing what the arrangements will be at both regional and local government level, vote for regional government, then they should have it.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords—

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords—

Lord Filkin: My Lords, I believe that the Liberal Democrat Benches should be allowed to put forward a question first, followed by these Benches. There will be time for questions from all three Benches.

Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, I welcome the Minister's recognition that the imposition of uniformity in a heterogeneous country such as England would be unwelcome. However, is he not at some risk of imposing a uniformity in respect of local government which is not apt to sustain regional government and certainly not to make it as popular as I have no doubt he and other members of the Government believe it should be? Is there not a case for recognising that, although unitary government should be the norm, in certain parts of the country good cases may be made for a retention of the status quo or some modification in the light of regional government?

Secondly, again for the avoidance of the imposition of an unwanted framework on the country, can the Minister set out the Government's thinking on the future modification of boundaries to take account of any criticisms that there may be of existing regional boundaries? Although they may make sense as a starting point for this exercise, they would not necessarily commend themselves throughout the whole country as a basis for this reform.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I hope that that is implicit in what I said. However, perhaps I may now make it explicit. Where a particular region does not have, or does not move towards, a referendum, then there is no proposal to change the existing local government arrangements. That means that they will continue to differ in different parts of the country. However, where there is to be a referendum and where people vote "yes" in that referendum, the White Paper says as a matter of principle that there should be only unitary local government. If one adds an additional tier, there would be too many tiers. That does not necessarily mean that one abolishes the role of counties. It is for the independent Boundary Committee to express its view before a particular region embarks upon a referendum.

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So far as concerns the question whether there are any proposals to change the existing regional boundaries within England, the answer is: not that I am aware of. However, I shall need to confirm that.


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