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The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 99 and 100. However, before I do, I would seek to advise the Minister—but who am I to do that?—that I do not intend to press these amendments today. There is a real cause for concern about clarity. I did not want to get into the debate about teachers and other members of the staff. It is not so much to do with the English language, but it is to
do with common expectation. People expect governors from the staff of the school to include, at least, the teachers, who are absolutely vital to the school and the curriculum and so on. There is also the worthwhile part played by other members of the staff. If there is any doubt about that, we should pause.I am grateful to the Minister for her willingness to table an amendment in the area of community governors in voluntary aided schools. My amendments seek to preserve in primary legislation, so far as concerns governance, the position of the churches and other voluntary bodies in relation to the schools that they have founded.
I appreciate that the Government have made clear that they want the Bill to concern principle rather than detail, which will follow in regulations. Amendments Nos. 99 and 100 deal with a point of principle. We regard a majority of two foundation governors as a requirement if the religious character—the special character—of the school and its distinctiveness are to be retained. That was set out in the definition of a foundation governor in Section 78(2) of the 1996 Act.
Similarly, in the case of a voluntary controlled school, we seek to ensure that there are at least two foundation governors or such number as constitute a quarter of the governing body.
That in no way undermines what the Government seek to do. It seeks to do no more than continue the principle enshrined in the 1944 and subsequent Education Acts. It also fulfils the commitment given in November 2000 by the then DfEE in its consultation on school governing bodies in paragraph 21. That stated that the new model—that is the size of existing voluntary aided governing bodies—would protect the existing position whereby foundation governors hold a majority of two or three places. It is for that reason that I bring forth these modest amendments which we hope will be seen as a principle and therefore should be on the face of the Bill.
Baroness David: I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 96 and 98, tabled by my noble friend Lord Peston and I. As my noble friend said when moving his first amendment to the Bill, we have no intention of dividing the Committee.
Amendment No. 96 refers to teachers and support staff. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about the importance of having support staff on the governing body. The status quo allows for representation of both teachers and support staff. All members of a school community should be represented on the governing body and able to contribute to the improvement of their school. However, simply replacing one category of governor by another is not the way to ensure an inclusive and representative body. To replace a specific category of teacher governor with a generic staff governor would seriously undermine the effectiveness of the school.
There seems to be little rationale to change the constitution of governing bodies as they have only recently—in 2000—been reconstituted. In their consultation document, The Way Forward: A
Modernised Framework for School Governance, the Government propose that there should be a single stakeholder group referred to as staff governors. The Explanatory Notes state:
- "The regulations will also establish a single staff governor category to replace separate teacher and non-teacher staff categories and will also establish that within that category one place should be reserved for a teacher".
The National Association of Governors and Managers argues that no stakeholder group should form a majority on the governing body. The National Union of Teachers agrees with that principle and therefore opposes the proposal to form a single governor stakeholder group to represent staff employed at the school. Teachers and other staff groups reflect different perspectives and there should be adequate representation of both of them. The staff and groups of staff are now so many: we have the kitchen staff, dinner ladies, cleaning ladies, lollipop men and women and people who deal with sports grounds. They are innumerable but they should be represented and could make a great contribution to the governing body. I hope that my amendments and those tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, are accepted.
I turn to the question of pupil governors, which is perhaps more controversial. I am clear that we should have pupil governors. I have worked with them, although it is true that that was in a sixth-form college. We had two pupil governors, who were a help to each other—in a big school, that is suitable. Attitudes have changed and the climate is much more friendly to young people in school having a greater voice.
Let us consider the background. In the White Paper, Schools: Achieving Success, the Government state that they
- "will encourage students' active participation in the decisions that affect them, about their learning and more widely".
- "Pupil participation should be the goal for all children and opportunities for such participation should expand as pupils develop".
On average, children spend 12 years in an environment where they have no legal right to be consulted or involved in decisions that affect them—in their own education, the running of their schools or the formation of wider educational policy and practice. A place on the governing body would put that right, increase their experience and make them a little more knowledgeable in the ways of the world. It is widely recognised that listening to and involving children and young people in schools plays a key role in preventing and combating disaffection.
With the introduction of the citizenship and personal, social and health education curricula from September 2002 and the requirement at key stages 3 and 4 to teach children about the,
- "legal and human rights and responsibilities underpinning society",
So what do we know about the Government's intention? In recent months they have suggested that they are prepared to issue non-statutory guidance on pupil participation but have reservations about placing statutory requirements on governing bodies and teachers. The Government should be bolder. They have taken some steps towards pupil representation. They should take that extra step. Let us at least have a pilot scheme for pupil governors, which I hope could be made universal.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 94 and 97, which concern teacher governors and support staff governors. It is important that both groups are represented on the governing board. It is extraordinary that having only just arrived at that position with the new regulations in 2000, we are now moving away from it. In particular, I should like to endorse the remark of the noble Baroness, Lady David, that there is an increasing number of support staff in schools. There is an increasing number of teaching assistants and we want to expand that number. It is absolutely right and proper that they are represented, but if they are, it is extraordinary to think that teachers should not be represented.
I do not understand why, having finally conceded in the last round that support staff should be represented, the Government are now going back on that—other than because of pressure in the background from head teachers, who have been worried about the number of people represented from schools. I do not understand why the government are caving in to that pressure. Both groups are stakeholders in the schools and it is vital that they are both separately represented.
5 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: I assume that we are discussing Amendments Nos. 93 to 101 and 106. I shall speak to Amendment Nos. 95 and 101. Amendment No. 95 follows the theme of our debate. Reference to teachers is conspicuous by its absence. We can only assume that somewhere in the bowels of the department a view has been taken—supported by Ministers—that it should not prescribe that teachers specifically, necessarily and in their own right should form part of the governing body. We know that it is not just possible but probable that members of staff will include a teacher, but
teachers are not specifically mentioned, so the Minister must tell us why the department has chosen not to do so.If the department believes that the provision should be widened from teachers to include other members of staff, is it entirely happy to accept that any member of staff representing other interests in the school could be chosen, or is it just assuming that one or more would be teachers but wants other sections of the staff to be represented? I do not know; I pose it as a question. It is important that the question is asked specifically.
I have tabled Amendment No. 101 to tease out from the Government the meaning of "other persons". The words,
- "such other persons as may be prescribed".
- "persons appointed as community governors".
- "such other persons as may be prescribed".
I assume from the Bill that the regulations will come forward under the negative resolution procedure. I shall ask the Minister to consider their coming forward under the affirmative resolution procedure. With regard to the regulations governing their operation, I regard composition as more important. Once the composition is established, one should leave the governors to get on with the job of governing the school. Therefore the affirmative resolution procedure seems appropriate.
The debate is somewhat unsatisfactory. We are talking about a disparate aspect. However, there is a common theme running through some of the amendments contained in the second group: the importance of teachers as a specific category. Not only on the face of the Bill but in government amendments to the Bill teachers are conspicuous by their absence.
I return to my original point about Amendments Nos. 93 and 106. I am not sure that the provisions are any clearer than they were in their original form.
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