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Baroness Massey of Darwen: I refer to Clause 18(2)(d) with reference to,
Lord Peston: That is an important question which is worth clarifying. Perhaps I may add a few words to my noble friend's remarks on pupils in schools. My daughter was among the first, if not the very first, pupil to be a governor of a school in Haringey. We were very proud and asked, "What was it like?". She said, "It's a complete waste of time". We inquired why. She said, "The teachers are hopeless"not surprisingly because that was her view of teachers generally. But in particular the governors were not merely hopeless but ignorant and had no idea about what went on in the school. That shattered me at the time, but it leads me to two views. First, being a governor undoubtedly involves having a great deal to do with the school. It is not something that one puts on a CV and assumes that that is it. Nowadays it involves a great deal of commitment. It requires one to have people who really know about the school.
The group which, overwhelmingly, knows most about the school is the pupils. The idea that such a group should be optional seems absurd. I have never considered that one needed much in the way of formal teacher assessment. One just asks the children who teaches well and who does not, who bunks off and who does not. One needs no investigations. Therefore, I am genuinely surprised that at best pupils are an optional category when it should be compulsory. Equally, although we make the usual remarks in this Chamber about local democracy, the need of the community, and so onI stand second to none in my support of those viewsthe fact is that we do not require the kind of people I have met on other bodies who talk a great deal at the relevant governing or other meeting and consider that as their contribution. Anything involving work or involvement is beyond them. Under another heading, we shall come to multiple governors and so on, which makes the matter even worse.
I strongly press my noble friend to face the reality of the school and the importance of governors, realising how important are those we have mentioned, the teaching and non-teaching staff and the pupils. I reiterate my noble friend's question. I am concerned to be assured that "parent governors" means parents of children at the school and that the staff are people on the staff rather than those who may have had some connection at some time.
We shall return to other topics in which we are interested. Amendment No. 106 seems to have nothing to do with what we are talking about. I assume that until we ran into our earlier troubles it was for the convenience of the Minister to group the two amendments together although that made difficulties unknown to any of us. I do not understand Amendment No. 106 and apologise, therefore, to my noble friend. I am sure that it is completely right and deserves all our support.
Lord Dearing: We are having a relaxed discussion and I presume, therefore, to join in, confessing my lack
of detailed knowledge. First, perhaps I may say yes to pupil governors. However, before returning to the issue on Report, or whenever, on reflection perhaps we may satisfy ourselves that there are no legal impediments to having a minor as a governor, accepting all the legal responsibilities that go with being a governor. That may need to be thought through.Secondly, one tends to have in one's mind a typical, fairly large, school. But there are a vast number of tiny primary schools in rural areas. When we think of having perhaps a teacher governor and a non-teacher staff governor, one may have the whole staff of the school on the governing body. We need to think through that angle too.
Baroness Blatch: The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, reminds me of a point relating to another clause. Where a school forms a company, we are putting on the governors a special and different responsibility. When considering the composition of governing bodies, we need to think of them as being members of companies, coming under the full panoply of company law.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I say to my noble friend Lord Peston that I, with other noble Lords, pay tribute to the work that governors do. Until last year, I was a chair of governorsperhaps a slightly easier job than I have today. Nonetheless, I thoroughly enjoyed that job and know from that experience over seven years, as do others, how much work governors do on behalf of us all in supporting schools and our children.
I view this debate against that backdrop. We seek to address the point reflected on by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, about how different schools may be and creating flexibility. I know that noble Lords will regard it in that spirit. These debates are important. The Government's objective is to ensure that we get the matter right.
In reply to my noble friend Lord Peston, the current legislation is framed so that the elected parent governor is a parent with a child at the school. Sometimes such a parent cannot be found so we consider that other categories of people should be included, such as parents of school-aged children. That is quite rareI have never come across itbut I gather that it happens. Another category is carers of children who may not necessarily be parents.
We want to re-enact the current position so that there is a broader meaning in law. We are doing precisely that in what, clearly, I have not set out well. I hope that clarifies the position. I apologise that we are not where I had hoped we would be, but I shall address the individual amendments. My noble friend Lady Massey is right to say that parent governors serve out their term of office, which is up to four years, and that teacher governorsstaff governorsresign on leaving the school.
Baroness Blatch: The noble Baroness quite rightly describes the situation as it is at the moment, and the letter states:
Secondly, the letter goes on to say,
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: The purpose is to put on the face of the Bill the wider definition of "parent" so that in regulation the current position can continue. We approach the matter in that way to ensure that we can continue as we want. We also want to address in regulation the same issue in regard to voluntary aided schools. Up to now they have not had that freedom. By putting that wider definition on the face of the Bill, within regulations we can say that that would be available for all schools.
Of course, wherever possible it is important to recruit parent governors from the parents of the children who attend the school. I believe that the Committee will agree that such a provision should include carers. We have said, in terms of the stakeholder model, that if, at the end of the day, that proves impossiblewe know that in some special schools it has proved quite difficultto have someone who is a parent, and who approaches issues from a parental point of view, would be of use.
Lord Roberts of Conwy: Is the noble Baroness aware that Amendment No. 93, which substitutes,
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: On the face of the Bill we have "parents of registered pupils". That excludes any other category of parent. We are seeking to achieve the opposite of what the noble Lord suggests. We are widening the definition of "parent" on the face of the Bill so that in regulation we can stipulate that schools should look initially to parents within the school, but if that is not possibleI have described the situation of some special schoolsthey can look more broadly. That should be allowed to happen for all categories of schools, and it is a power that voluntary aided schools have wanted.
We are not trying to take anything away from parents of children attending the school. Of course, wherever possible they should be the parents involved,
but if we were unable to achieve that we feel, as we have for some time, that we should still have a parental viewpoint or a carer's viewpoint. I hope that makes the position clear.
Baroness Blatch: I may have a mental blockage about this. That is the current position so why do we need an amendment? Which statute prevents voluntary aided schools from enjoying that extension? What is there in the extension under the proposed amendment of the noble Baroness that includes voluntary aided schools? They are not named in the amendment at all.
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