| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am sure that the noble Baroness does not have a mental blockage. The way in which the Bill has been framed takes away from the current position. That is why we need to amend it. As of today, the position is that if a school is unable to find a parent from within its ranks who is willing to serve, it can look more widely. The way in which we have framed the Bill removes that provision. My amendment puts it back. Voluntary aided schools have not had that opportunity. By widening the position on the face of the Bill we can, by regulation, allow the voluntary aided schools to have that right.
Lord Peston: Perhaps I can reassure my noble friend that I understand what she is doing. Therefore, I believe she should soldier on as she has taught at least one person, out of all those present, something.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Thank you. If I can convince one other person of the point, that proves that I have understood it. I turn to the amendments that are now in this group, and speak, first, to Amendments Nos. 94, 95 and 97.
We have approached this matter through a consultation group called The Way Forward. Represented on that group were all the major stakeholders, including the National Association of Governors and Managers, the National Governors' Council and various other representatives of whom Members of the Committee will be aware. I was fortunate enough to chair the final meeting, having just been appointed. The purpose of the group was to consider some of the issues that governing bodies raised with it. Following those discussions I met with groups of governors around the country in order to test our proposals.
On the single staff stakeholder group, I fully understand why concerns have been raised. We had 4,385 replies to the consultation. The proposal was supported by 77 per cent and, to some extent, the support from head teachers and other staff was 78 per cent.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said, non-teaching staff are very much part of the school team. The amendments before us would alter the balance struck within The Way Forward group. I offer the noble Baroness reassurance by saying that we shall
safeguard teacher representation on the governing bodies by making provisions in regulations that prescribe that at least one place on the single staff stakeholder group should be taken by a teacher. If no teacher stands for election, we want to ensure that the position is filled rather than being left unfilled. So a position is held for a teacher within that group on the understanding that if no teacher comes forward, the school should be able to fill the place, if it felt that was appropriate. We agree with those who have argued—a large percentage of those directly affected—for flexibility.I turn to Amendment No. 96 in the name of my noble friend Lord Peston. The Way Forward group recommended that at least one member of the staff group should be a teacher. We believe that the level of support indicates that that is the right approach. Non-teaching staff make an important contribution. I hope that we shall be able to see that the maximum flexibility being created within the group enables schools to develop the model that suits them. We want to create a flexible model wherever possible to enable schools to develop the size, the type and the style, within the Way Forward group's proposition of the stakeholder model, that has been carefully worked out with them.
Perhaps I may turn to the subject of pupils and Amendment No. 98. I agree with everything that has been said about pupils being at the heart of education. It is important to consider how to involve them. However, over the years, it has become very clear to us that governing bodies have been given increasingly strategic—and, I would say, demanding—responsibilities: they set out the strategic direction of schools; they monitor and evaluate the performance to provide support and challenge the role of the "critical friend"; and secure accountability. So they have a tremendously demanding role to play.
In the light of what has been said about school companies by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, and by the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, I believe it would be helpful if I were to say a little about the legal position of governing bodies, because of the implications involved. When we debated school companies, we discussed at great length the issue of the body corporate. However, as those deliberations made clear, the governing body does have a distinct legal identity, which is separate from that of the individual governors who exercise their powers through collective decision making.
Thus a governing body in its own name can enter into contracts, and, depending on the category of school, hire and manage staff, acquire and manage the premises occupied by the school, open a bank account, and hold and manage the school budget. Provided that the governing body acts responsibly and in good faith, individual governors are protected from any personal liability for debts or obligations incurred by the governing body.
A body corporate can sign documents upon which third parties are entitled to rely as evidence of legal commitment. Therefore, it is important that those who
deal with a body corporate are confident that it will act in a responsible manner. That depends to a large extent on the quality of the individual people who make the corporate decisions. To protect third parties, legislation that regulates public bodies, charities and companies—all of which are "bodies corporate"—is concerned with who may and who may not participate in corporate decision making through membership of the controlling body.A lack of legal capacity in corporate decision making is a ground for disqualifying potential members from being members of bodies corporate. That is generally accepted to cover persons under the age of majority; that is to say, 18 years of age. For pupils under 18 to be eligible for governorship would, at best, be inadvisable. However, I believe that pupils' voices should be heard. They can, of course, make a valuable contribution to decision making. Pupils can already attend governing body meetings and committees at the invitation of the governing body. We know that a number of schools do so on a regular basis.
I want to ensure that there are clear mechanisms for taking pupils' views into account. I therefore intend to provide in regulations for governing bodies to be able to appoint pupils to a committee or committees as associate members. The regulations will, of course, be subject to public consultation—
Lord Peston: I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but is she saying that those pupils who previously served as school governors were behaving illegally? We are not inventing school governors here. As far as I know, schools have had pupil governors for some time. After all these years, I am a little taken aback to discover that there was a legal side to the matter. I should never have let a child of mine become remotely involved if I thought that there was any legal commitment, because I may well have ended up with a similar problem. This is absolutely news to me. I am not saying that it is incorrect, but perhaps my noble friend could clarify the situation.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Those young people who serve as school governors are unable to vote; and, therefore, are not members of the governing body because they have no voting rights.
I am trying to offer an appropriate category for young people, so that we can bring them into the process in a positive way. I strongly emphasise the fact that I want governors to be recognised for the valuable contribution that they make, and for the responsibilities that they carry. It is my view that associate membership is a good way of involving that participation. If people become governors, they should recognise that they are taking on a serious responsibility—I know that governors do—which has some effect in law. I make that distinction in the hope that it will address the issue raised by my noble friend. This amendment would make it compulsory to have pupil governors. I hope that I have persuaded my
noble friend that that would not be the right way forward, and that he will agree not to press his amendment.Perhaps I may move on to Amendment No. 99, tabled in the name of the right reverend Prelate. The guiding principle for foundation and voluntary controlled schools was that up to and including one-quarter of the places will be reserved for foundation or partnership governors. In our policy statement, which has been made available to noble Lords, we set out our commitment to implement the proposals of the Way Forward Group in this respect. I am pleased to have the opportunity to repeat that commitment here in Committee. We shall be implementing the proposals recommended by the Way Forward Group, and supported through consultation.
The provisions of Clause 18 ensure that there will be at least one governor place in each of the categories listed. The right reverend Prelate made clear that the Churches are seeking a minimum representation of two, or one-quarter where this is the greater. We have had discussions with Church representatives on this point, and are exploring how we might go some way towards meeting the point of concern. I am pleased, therefore, to offer a commitment to provide in regulations for a minimum of two foundation or partnership governor places at foundation and voluntary controlled schools.
As our proposals received such widespread support in consultation, I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that I am keen to ensure that we do not depart significantly from the principles that I previously outlined. I hope that my offer of providing for a minimum representation of two foundation or partnership governor places at foundation schools will be sufficient to meet the primary concern of the right reverend Prelate.
I should also like to draw attention to an additional safeguard for the Churches that applies to voluntary controlled and voluntary aided schools, as well as to foundation schools with foundation governors. At the local level, the LEA will be unable to make an instrument of government detailing governing body membership for any governing body having foundation governors, unless the foundation governors themselves, the trustees, and any diocesan body, are content. Where the parties cannot agree, the disputed instrument will be referred to the Secretary of State for determination. These are existing provisions, which have worked to resolve disputes. We shall carry them forward into the regulations governing the process for making instruments of government. As for voluntary aided schools, I can confirm that the guiding principle for these schools is that foundation governors outnumber the other governors by two.
If we were to define one stakeholder group's membership in the primary legislation, I am sure that the Committee will appreciate that we would undoubtedly receive similar requests from all other stakeholder groups. If we distinguish between the various groups, that would imply differences in parity of esteem.
However, I can confirm that there is no disagreement on the level of foundation governor representation on voluntary aided school governing bodies. The Way Forward Group proposed that foundation governors should outnumber the other governors by two. Responses to the consultation showed that over 90 per cent supported, at least in part, the proposals on representation—there was 88 per cent support from voluntary aided school respondents. I am pleased to have the opportunity to place on the record a specific commitment to provide in regulations for a majority of two for the foundation governors at voluntary aided schools.
I hope, therefore, that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn will appreciate why we are not defining the level of the majority on the face of the Bill, believing, as we do, that that is a matter for regulations. None the less, I listened most carefully to what the right reverend Prelate said. I know that this is an important point for the Churches. I recognise the importance of foundation governors in relation to voluntary aided schools. I trust, therefore, that we can meet the concern of the right reverend Prelate, without changing our general approach in the area.
I am prepared to bring forward on Report a government amendment that would establish the principle of a majority for the foundation governors for voluntary aided schools. I can confirm that we shall provide in regulations for the foundation to have a majority of two. I hope that this approach, which enshrines the principle in primary legislation, will meet the concern of the right reverend Prelate and that he will not seek to press his amendment.
Finally, I turn to Amendment No. 101. When discussing Amendment No. 95, I mentioned that the stakeholder model has been consulted on, and has received widespread support. I should like to reiterate our commitment to that model, and to preserving the balance between the different stakeholders: parents, staff, LEA appointed governors, community governors; and, for voluntary and foundation schools, foundation or partnership governors. The Way Forward Group emphasised the importance of maintaining the commitment to the stakeholder model of school governance.
Clause 18 defines the categories of persons who must be represented on the governing body, and thereby holds true to the principles of safeguarding representation of the key stakeholders. But there is a limited number of other persons whom we want to allow to be included on governing bodies, if governing bodies so choose. These are sponsor governors, and governors nominated by the Education Action Forum, if the school is part of an education action zone. To achieve this we need the provision that is the subject of this amendment; namely, that regulations may provide for governing bodies to consist of,
- "such other persons as may be prescribed",
I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, by saying that we shall provide in regulations for a maximum of two sponsor governors per
governing body. We intend to set a maximum of two, because we are committed to the stakeholder model. We want to ensure that the balance between stakeholders is maintained. However, we believe that it is right to extend the definition of sponsor governor beyond the current definition in Schedule 1 to the Education (School Government)(England) Regulations 1999, which applies only to individuals providing substantial financial assistance or benefits in kind, excluding services, to schools. Naturally, such individuals must declare an interest and withdraw from discussions on any issue relevant to that interest.We plan to extend the current definition to include other external partners providing advice and support, including the provision of assistance by providing services to the school, as we explained in our recent consultation paper. Those offering support to a school—for example, through partnership working—could make a valuable contribution to the governance of the school, particularly by strengthening governance arrangements if the school is in difficulties. That might include, for example, a successful school, FE college or other body supporting or partnering another school. It is right that there should be scope for the school or body that is providing support to be represented on the governing body. That could be an important way of strengthening weaker governing bodies.
In the interests of parity, it is important to allow anyone providing a school with such potential benefits through a partnership to have an equal right to be represented on the governing body as those providing financial benefits, if they and the governing body of the recipient school so choose. I hope that, with the reassurances that I have given, the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, will not move the amendment.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Peston: I want to ask my noble friend two questions. She has clarified some things but has left me feeling rather lost on the subject of pupil governors. My understanding of what the Minister said is that no person under the age of 18 can be a pupil governor. That is what she seemed to say. That is news to me, and it would represent a drastic change. That is what puzzles me. I do not need the answer to that question today.
My other question relates to religious schools. Much as I am opposed to religious schools in all forms, I understand that, if we are to have such bodies, the religious sponsors should have a dominant role. It would make no sense otherwise. Subject to my general attitude to such schools, I was glad to hear my noble friend's reply. However, bells started ringing none the less. Can I have an assurance that, in all other schools, none of the interested parties will have a guaranteed majority or be allowed to consider having such a majority? That frightens the life out of me with regard to some of the new forms of school in which the
Government have taken an interest. Can I assume that everybody else will be in a definite minority on governing bodies?
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |