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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I turn first to Amendment No. 102. I agree with the noble Baronesses, Lady Sharp and Lady Blatch, that there is a need for an appropriate level of prescription on the constitution and procedures of governing bodies to ensure that the necessary safeguards are in place.

It is our current intention to make regulations covering the specific items listed in Clause 18(3). We have set out our intention in our policy statement which has been available to the House. The point about "may" is that there may come a time when such regulations are not needed. Making unnecessary regulations would impede governing bodies' ability to choose and adopt arrangements that best suit their particular circumstances and it would thereby risk making governing bodies less effective.

For example, within the clause, paragraph (l) provides for,


Paragraph (j) refers to,


    "the appointment of persons other than governors to serve on committees of governing bodies".

Subject to consultation, those paragraphs may not require regulations under the proposed new arrangements. It may be more appropriate and helpful to governing bodies to cover those areas in guidance rather than in regulations.

I turn to Amendments Nos. 105 and 108. We shall debate the whole concept of "federation" and I look forward to doing so. However, the purpose behind it is to enable schools to collaborate strategically.

Amendment No. 105 would mean that each individual school which chose to federate would have to retain its own individual governing body. That in turn would mean that the governing body of the federation would effectively be an overarching structure that would sit above each school's individual governing body. It seems to me that this amendment would result in the worst of both worlds. The existence of a supra-governing body for the federation of schools would undermine the role of the individual governing bodies while adding greatly to the workload and bureaucracy.

I do not consider that that would be a way forward. It is our intention—we shall debate the matter at length—that when a school chooses to federate, it will come under the auspices of a single governing body for the whole federation in order to minimise bureaucracy and retain and increase accountability.

As regards Amendment No. 108, perhaps I may make it clear that when schools decide to federate under a single governing body, it is our intention that the governing bodies will make a request to the LEA to draw up an instrument of government for the

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federation. As Members of the Committee will be aware, the instrument of government for a school is an important document that sets out the constitution.

In our view, drawing up an instrument of government is the only sensible mechanism through which to make a change to the constitution of the governing body. I emphasise that the federation approach is not about the merger of two or more schools into one. Indeed, within the federation each school will retain its character and structural arrangements.

As regards Amendment No. 109, perhaps I may reassure Members of the Committee that it is indeed our intention to make regulations setting out the terms of reference for the governing bodies of maintained schools; to define the respective roles and responsibilities of the LEA, the governing body and the head teacher in the conduct of the school; and to confer functions on governing bodies and head teachers.

We intend to build on the existing regulations to include one important additional element. Schools have greater autonomy than ever before, but there are a number of areas where the local education authority does have a role and responsibility in the conduct of individual schools; for example, in offering advice on head teacher appointments to community and voluntary-controlled school governing bodies, or taking direct responsibility where the delegated budget has been suspended.

The role of the LEA in school education has been fully described in the revised code of practice on LEA school relations, issued last year. It is not our intention to amend in any way LEA roles or responsibilities, but rather to ensure that governing bodies are fully aware of the issues.

I hope I have reassured the noble Baroness that we intend to regulate on all the areas provided for. The use of the permissive "may" is not intended to water down that commitment, but rather to recognise in legal drafting terms that there is no over-riding requirement to have such regulations in existence in order for governing bodies, head teachers and LEAs to conduct their statutory responsibilities. As time progresses, it may be that in certain areas we would want to rely more on guidance than regulations, but for the present time I can assure Members of the Committee that we fully intend to regulate in this area and that the existing regulations will remain in force until we have done so.

I hope that in the light of those assurances the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Lord Peston: We appear to be having the debate under a misconception. I have previously enunciated to Members of the Committee the golden rule of opposition. It is that every time the word "may" appears it is the duty of the Opposition to substitute "shall" and that every time the word "shall" appears it is the duty of the Opposition to substitute "may". I did that for many years when I was desperately trying to make a contribution to a Bill I did not understand.

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It is inconceivable that we could have governing bodies if they did not have regulations. Therefore, I do not see what the debate is all about. Clearly there will be regulations and I do not know why we are debating that. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, pointed out, we shall need to debate the regulations when they are published. However, I say to my old friend the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that I do not see why we have spent so much time debating the issue. Can she give me an example of how this world can proceed with no regulations? We would have no governing bodies.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: In response to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, I was on this occasion changing "may" to "shall", thereby obeying the particular rule that he laid down! Part of the idea of the reorganisation of governing bodies is to move to a situation in which there is variable geometry and where governing bodies can vary. The proposed draft regulations indicate that there can be considerable variation but there are problems with that. Problems arise when we do not have national rules about what shall constitute quorums and instruments of government. That is the issue about which I was concerned.

I thank the Minister for her reply. I am somewhat reassured by it because she appears to have in mind some of the issues about which I was concerned. I am most reassured by what she has said about federations. If she is right that they are largely a strategic function, it is all the more important that schools should be able to preserve their own individual boards. They may come together for particular issues, but there is a considerable difference when schools have their own boards of governors. We shall debate that matter when we discuss federations but, meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 102A:


    Page 12, line 18, leave out paragraph (h).

The noble Baroness said: In rising to move Amendment No. 102A, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 102B. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Peston, will not feel that I ought to be rebuked for delving yet again into the shape of the regulations.

I do not argue that there should be no regulations. There are many issues for governors and the governing body which need the protection of a framework within which to work. However, I question whether there need to be regulations relating to how governors elect their chairman or vice-chairman. I am delighted to see the word "chairman" on the face of the Bill, but the way in which he or she is elected should be a matter for the governing body. I am happy for the regulations to state that there shall be a chairman and a vice-chairman, but I do not believe that the method of their election should be covered by regulations.

I turn to Clause 18(3)(i). Having served on governing bodies—and on more than one at any given time—I know that some will have a finance and general purposes committee, some will have an

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administration sub-committee and others will have other forms of committees. Governing bodies do not all have the same types of committees. They will meet their legal obligations, whatever they may be, but in their own way. In the spirit of genuinely devolving some flexibility to the governing bodies, at least paragraphs (h) and (i) should be removed from the list. I could argue that one or two others are suspect, but for the moment I believe that paragraphs (h) and (i) are otiose. I beg to move.

6 p.m.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am intrigued to know what the noble Baroness thought would be there if the word "chairman" was not there. I presume it would be "chairperson" or some such other term.

Baroness Blatch: When Cambridgeshire ceased to be a Conservative controlled authority when I was the leader, the following morning I went to meet the leaders of the other two parties. I found that we had gone from being "chair" to being "spoke". For a while I was called "Madam spoke" but for much of the time we were just called "spokes". I was described as an "equal member of an egalitarian triumvirate" at the time. It was absolute nonsense. I like to be called "chairman" or "Madam chairman", but I do not like to be called "chair", "spoke" or any other such word.


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