Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page


Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My noble friend Lord McIntosh says "triumvirate" is sexist too. I am perfectly happy with the word "chairman". When I have been in the position of a chairman, that is what I have been called. I thank the noble Baroness for her explanation.

I hope I have made clear that we have a commitment to deregulating governance legislation where it is possible and appropriate. But we want to ensure a balance between safeguards and flexibility, and while I can confirm that we will consider carefully what level of detail the regulations should contain I do not want to give the impression that we would wish to deregulate this area completely.

The positions of chair and vice-chair are crucial to the performance of a governing body. They ensure the good conduct of meetings, that the meeting does its business well and that responsibilities are carried out. Certainly, having performed that function myself, I am well aware that chairmen of governing bodies spend a great deal of their time working closely with head teachers and with staff. They are, if you like, the first port of call for issues involving governing bodies. Their role is crucial.

When governing bodies are looking to the "centre", if I may describe it as such, to support them, they want to know how to do certain things. It is not natural for everyone to be able to design and devise their own way of doing things. As we encourage more people to become involved in governing bodies, we do want flexibility, but we also need to lay the ground rules that will help them in their task.

9 May 2002 : Column 1312

I appreciate that the provisions which at present require the clerk to seek nominations in advance from individuals and to list those names on the agenda for the meeting, and so on, were brought in to bring more openness and transparency into the procedure. However, I am prepared to reflect on the points that the noble Baroness has made and take them into account in revising the regulations. But if we deregulate in this area, each governing body could then determine how to elect its own chair. There would be a lack of consistency and I am not sure that there would be a clear safeguard to ensure a fair process. It is possible that chairs could be appointed without election.

We want to do as much as we can to remove burdens. I hope that I can reassure the noble Baroness by saying that we will include only the minimum provision necessary in regulation to safeguard a transparent and fair election process for chairs and vice-chairs.

As to Amendment No. 102B, my concern is about accountability, which is a key function of a governing body. There may be scope to deregulate some of the current provisions that apply to the establishment of committees—I hope I can reassure the noble Baroness by saying that we will consider this carefully—but a certain level of prescription is needed to clarify and safeguard accountability lines. For instance, if a governing body gives delegated authority to a committee, then the committee is accountable for the decisions it takes. It is therefore important to prescribe that the majority of members on that committee must be governors, as opposed to associate members who can be appointed to committees but are not governors, as I described earlier in relation to pupils.

Governing body committees also deal with a number of statutory duties, such as staff discipline and, in some cases, admissions. Here again it is important to safeguard transparency and fairness by making some provision as to the membership of these committees.

With the commitment that we will deregulate the provisions on elections of chairs and vice-chairs and the establishment of committees, where possible, within the safeguards that I have indicated, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, will feel able to withdraw her amendments.

Lord Peston: Before the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, responds, perhaps my noble friend will be able to clarify one issue. My noble friend said that she will reflect on what has been said on this matter. Can she tell me, either now or later, if we do not make provision for these matters by regulation, are we certain legally that the governing body could do these things? Perhaps I may make a not perfect analogy. After your Lordships had set up my economic affairs Committee I discovered that you had not set it up with any powers to establish sub-committees. When I suddenly announced that we were going to establish a sub-committee I was told, "No, you can't, because no one has given you that power".

9 May 2002 : Column 1313

If my noble friend were to leave some of these matters out of regulations, can we be sure that the governing body would be allowed to do them? I do not need an answer now. I would like the same answer my noble friend gave earlier, that she will reflect on these matters before coming to a final conclusion on the regulations.

Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I hope that I have indicated that we do wish to reflect. As I said, it is a question of achieving a balance between ensuring that we have consistency and fairness and, in terms of responsibility, that the governing body is given support and regulation to ensure that it operates effectively, while at the same time recognising that some of the ways in which we have tied up our governing bodies in procedural terms could be altered and changed. As I said, I shall reflect on all of those issues and come back to the Committee on them.

Baroness Blatch: I am grateful to the Minister for saying that she will reflect on the amendments. However, whatever happened to "trust the people"? If one looks at the regulations which I have not sought to remove from the Bill, such as,


    "the number of governors, or of governors falling within any category,


    "the person or persons by whom, and the manner in which, governors are to be elected or appointed,


    "eligibility for election...


    "the term of office of governors,


    "resignation or removal from office of governors"—

I shall not read them all out but they are pretty considerable—anyone who gets through those rules that far is capable of being either a chairman or vice-chairman of a governing body. Certainly they would be a group of people capable of forming committees and sub-committees and running them because they would have to meet their legal obligations under the Bill anyway.

In answer to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Peston, I thought that the basis of law in this country was that you could do anything as long as there was not a bar in law to prevent you from doing it. So, for example, if paragraph (i) was removed from the Bill, it would not mean that no governing body could form sub-committees in order to carry out their work.

Lord Peston: We do not live in a society where you can do anything you like. We live in a society where all kinds of bodies, public and private, are subject to laws which empower them to do certain things corresponding to what they were set up for and which prevent them from doing other things. It may well be that the law exists to enable the governing bodies to do all the things that the noble Baroness wants them to do. I was simply inquiring whether that was actually the case. My experience when serving on a body is that when dealing with matters which look reasonable to you and which you feel you should be able to do, you often discover that you have not got the powers to deal with them, even though you thought you did.

9 May 2002 : Column 1314

I am merely asking my noble friend, who has promised to do exactly what the noble Baroness wants—that is, to look at this issue—to bear that in mind. It seems a perfectly reasonable thing to ask and I am delighted with her reply that she will look at these matters. I do not wish to rebuke the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, but I do not know why she is persisting with her remarks on this issue.

Baroness Blatch: It is because I believe implicitly that the governing bodies will get on with it and do an extremely good job. There is no evidence anywhere that there has been an abuse of this procedure. I was told a long time ago that rules and regulations are only there as a guide for when things go wrong. I was always told that a body which worries about its rules and regulations is usually a body failing. By and large, governing bodies do the right thing in the interests of their schools, their children and their parents. I trust them to do that.

I certainly trust them to appoint from within their number a chairman or vice-chairman. In answer to my question about that, the noble Baroness said that it is possible that a chairman could be appointed without an election. The governing body would have to guide that. If someone put their hand up and said "I would like to be chairman", and the governing body were happy with that and everyone said "Fine", that would be an endorsement by the governing body and perfectly all right. It does not usually happen like that. There is usually more than one person who wants to be the chairman, although in other governing bodies and in some parts of the country, getting someone to be a governor, let alone to be the chairman of governors, is quite difficult.

I want to go down the road of trusting the people. I hope that the noble Baroness will come forward with an amendment to satisfy me in that regard. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 102B not moved.]

Baroness Walmsley moved Amendment No. 103:


    Page 12, line 25, at end insert—


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page