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The noble Baroness said: In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 104.
This is a probing amendment. It seeks to ensure that all the various categories of governors are governed by the same or similar regulations. As my noble friend Lady Sharp of Guildford said earlier, the Government last changed the constitution of governing bodies only just over two years ago. The vast majority of head teachers, governors and teachers believe that there is completely and utterly no need to make further changes to the constitution of governing bodies at this stage. The status quo has evolved and is deemed by most to be satisfactory.
Therefore, will the Minister clarify the issue of teachers standing to be parent governors in their own school? Currently, a teacher with a child in the same school as the one in which he or she teaches is able to stand either as a parent governor or as a teacher governor.
The DfES consultation document, The Way Forward, proposed to prevent teachers who have a child in the same school from standing as parent governors. Yet the Bill makes no reference to that. What are the Government's intentions on the issue? Although I can see the potential difficulties and conflicts of interest that may be seen to arise in such cases, the Government must be able to trust all governors and governing bodies to function professionally and in the best interests of the school as a whole.
Therefore, it seems counter-productive to set up unnecessary barriers to teacher-parents when it is difficult enough to recruit and retain parent governors, as in the cases referred to earlier by the Minister in which the parents of children who are not at the school sometimes have to be recruited. What impact does the Minister think these proposals will have on the recruitment and retention of governors?
Amendment No. 104 seeks to prevent a reduction in the number of teaching and support staff governors on school governing bodies within the stakeholder group, unless the teaching and support staff governors have conducted the necessary ballot to approve the reduction. The amendment would mean that no change could be made to the status quo regarding the constitution of existing governing bodies without the agreement of the majority of teaching and non-teaching staff in schools.
It is important to note that the status quo allows for representation of both teachers and support staff on the governing bodywhich is clearly welcome, not only to Members of the Committee, given the debate earlier, but to all the governing bodies I know. My noble friend Lady Sharp reminded us that the number of teaching assistants in schools is set to rise; therefore, it is vitally important that they, too, have the opportunity to serve on the governing body. I beg to move.
Baroness Massey of Darwen: I again seek clarification on an issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. It is my impression that a person who teaches in a certain local education authority cannot be a governor in a school under that authority unless the person is elected to be a teacher governor in his or her own school.
Baroness Walmsley: Frankly, I am not sure whether that is correct. I understood that the person could be either a teacher governor or a parent governor. Perhaps we could be advised by the Minister.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am happy to deal with the matter of teacher and parent governors, although it does not follow directly from the amendment. The amendment, as I understand it, seeks to ensure an equal voice on the governing body in terms of stakeholders. Perhaps I may address that specific matter and then turn to the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley.
Our stakeholder model was the subject of full discussion and negotiation. Although I appreciate the comments that have been made about history and background, we were very clear that we needed to arrive at a point where the model made the best sense for all the stakeholders. Within that model, we do not have complete parity between the different groups. It is, for example, our view that parents and staff should represent a third of the governing body, and so on. We can discuss the stakeholder model at another time. The consequence of the amendment as drafted would be paritywhich would, of course, include the sponsor governors to whom I referred, who would be additional governors. It is a consequence that we do not want.
To take the specific issue of staff and parent governors, in deliberations on The Way Forward and in all the discussions that I have had with governing bodies around the country, we discussed the matter at length and put our proposals forward to hear different views.
All staff will be able to put themselves forward. So those parents who are also teachers or lunch-time supervisors, or are connected with a school in any other way, will be able to put themselves forward to be elected by their peers as staff governors. We believe that that is the best way to ensure that those people who have a relationship with a school are defined in one category or another.
The current position is that staff cannot be co-opted as governors in the schools where they are employed. We are simply extending that principle to say that, in the case of a staff member, that is his or her primary role within the school and that is the group to which he or she should be elected to the governing body. In the case of parents, it is people who are not connected with a school in terms of drawing a salary or having some kind of contract with the school. That is the principle. We are defining parents in that way and saying that, while we very much welcome people who are parents and who are involved in the school as teachers or other staff, they should stand in the category of staff governors. I hope that that makes our position as clear as possible.
Turning to Amendment No. 104, we have attempted to get the maximum amount of support for our proposals. I am pleased with the level of support that we have received for this model. It is designed to give increasing flexibility and to recognise that schools are different and have different needs. We believe that governing bodies are best placed to decide what works for them, taking account of local and specific
The approach that we are advocating is about giving governing bodies a choice while ensuring that the balance between the different stakeholders is maintained. But in that context I do not believe that it is right to say that there can be a veto in terms of allowing certain groups of stakeholders to say that they will not accept it. For example, a governing body might decide that it wished to change its size. It would then have to hold ballotswhich we believe would be a serious disincentive. Nor do I think it right to allow schools to retain separate categoriesfor example, staff and teachersand the option to retain existing numbers. What we are attempting to do is to set out guiding principles, the model around which schools are able to determine what they want to do.
That is our position. I recognise that this change has come at the end of other changes. However, we have committed ourselves to giving governing bodies three years to adopt a new constitutional model. We shall not move on these matters until 2006, so they will have the time for that. It is important also to emphasise that existing governors will be able to serve out their term, but we shall ask governing bodies to move by that date to the new stakeholder model with the flexibilities it entails. I hope that with those reassurances the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Blatch: Perhaps I may put a question to the Minister about community governors. In the policy document, the noble Baroness reminds us that the School Standards and Framework Act refers to the community governor as the person who is appointed a member of the school's governing body by being co-opted by governors who have not themselves been so appointed. As I understand it, the regulations will extend that, and it is not made clear in which way.
It is my understanding that a teacher in the communitywho may not necessarily be a teacher at that particular schoolup until we left office was available for co-option or even for election as a governor at the school. I am not sure how the present definition in paragraph 1 of Schedule 9 in the School Standards and Framework Act is to be re-written in the regulations, and in what way they will be extended to include wider interests.
As to the draft regulations, it would be enormously helpful to all sides if we could have sight of those before we reach the next stage of the Bill.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I am certainly happy to take away the noble Baroness's request to look at draft regulations. The position of a teacher who does not teach at the school and who might be co-opted through the community route is as it was. As a co-optee, that would be perfectly appropriate. The purpose of extending and looking at the community group is specifically to see whether we can widen out within that co-opted group. For example, if the school has a number of looked-after children, one of the co-optees might be someone from social services who has
"provided however that such regulations may not make different provision for different governors, nor for different categories of governors, save as may be necessary to give effect to requirements for the election of governors in certain categories"
6.15 p.m.
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