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Baroness Walmsley: I think that the amendments have served their purpose in clarifying the Government's position. As I understand it, under the regulations a teacher with a child at a school will be able to serve on the governing body only as a teacher and not as a parent. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 104 and 105 not moved.]
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Incorporation and powers of governing body]:
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 106:
- Page 129, line 18, leave out "and" and insert "or"
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19 [Instruments of government]:
Baroness Sharp of Guildford moved Amendment No. 107:
- Page 12, line 43, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert—
The noble Baroness said: The amendment would re-establish a principle currently in primary legislation. Every school has an instrument of government controlling who is a member of the governing board. Since the Education Act 1980, these have been made by the local education authority. Before that, the LEA made the instrument for county schools and the DES for voluntary schools.
The current law requires that the local education authority makes the instruments of government for each school. The Bill will make subject to regulations the body that will approve the instrument. It does not say that the LEA will do it, although until now the LEA has been written into primary legislation as the body that shall do that. There is no suggestion that the regulations are not going to designate the local education authority as the body to do it. It is the obvious body to do so. It has local knowledge of the schools and it has the authority to do it. Moving the principle that the LEA should make the instrument of government out of primary legislation and into secondary legislation seems pretty pointless. It has the
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: We propose that the procedures will be largely a continuation of the existing arrangements in Schedule 12 to the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. I assure the noble Baroness that local education authorities will continue to be responsible for making instruments of government for all maintained schools and that the requirements for consulting interested parties will not be changed. Those assurances are contained in section 4.2 on page 18 of the policy statement that has been put in the Library.
We believe that it is necessary that regulations are provided in this way. Noble Lords will be aware that existing legislation obliges LEAs to ensure that all maintained schools have an instrument, but allows the governing body to prepare and submit a draft instrument to the LEA for authorisation. The governing body of any school with foundation governors is required to submit a draft to other relevant parties, such as those who appoint foundation governors, the trustees and the diocesan authority.
The existing arrangements are consistent with the flexible approach of the new stakeholder framework and are therefore being carried forward. They reflect the spirit of the new framework, which allows governing bodies to choose their membership in response to the particular needs and circumstances of the schools. We believe that they are therefore best put in regulations. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I seek a little clarification from the Minister. Am I right in thinking that the change that she is proposing is that schools should be able to make their own instruments of government, which would be vetted by local education authorities to make sure that they met the required principle? Whereas primary legislation currently puts responsibility for making the instruments of government into the hands of the local education authority, that responsibility can now shift to the schools.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: Existing legislation allows that schools can draft their own instrument and submit it to the LEA for authorisation. We are putting the issue in regulations because we think that that is a simpler way. That does not change the substance. We think that it contributes to simplifying education legislation and adds no extra bureaucracy. There will be a partnership between schools and local education authorities in the drawing up of the instrument, but the responsibility is firmly with the local education authority.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the Minister for that reply. There seems little need to change current legislation, but I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 108 not moved.]
Clause 20 [General responsibility for conduct of school]:
[Amendment No. 109 not moved.]
Clause 22 [Clerk to the governing body]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 110:
The noble Baroness said: I echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. We seem to have pages and pages of changes, but we have to ask what they are improving, what they are changing and what is their purpose. A great deal of time could be saved, as could a great deal of anxiety on the part of schools. When we pass a new Act of Parliament, schools start to worry about what new things they have to do. In an attempt to be helpful, the Minister constantly tells us that the proposals are no different from what schools are doing at the moment, so they need not worry and there will be no extra burdens. The underlying question is: why change?
I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 110 and 111 and argue that the clause should not stand part of the Bill. Paragraph (b) says that regulations shall cover,
One of the reasons why the body that represented grant maintained schools went along with the proposals to give them the option to become community schools or foundation schools was the promise that they would continue to enjoy a great deal of autonomy on how they ran their affairs. It is important to continue to honour that pledge. The governing body should be given responsibility in such cases.
I then argue against myself and ask why we should have regulations at all. Let the governing bodies get on with what they do well. This is an area that does not require regulating; that there should be a clerk to the governing body is sufficient. How it appoints the clerk or how he or she operates as a clerk to the governing body and whether he or she does his job well, badly or indifferently should be a matter for the governing body. Whether a clerk should be dismissed should also be a matter for the governing body. I hope that the noble Baroness will be sympathetic to that argument. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: I feel that I ought to be grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, for raising this matter and, indeed, I am. However, I am in some difficulty because it is not clear to me who is the prescribed body for other schools. It seems to me to make perfect common sense, given that voluntary-aided schools and foundation schools appoint head teachers and so on, that this small task should be given to them. However, I should have thought that all governing bodies would be perfectly capable of handling that task and would not need some other body to do it. As I do not have the regulations, I have tried to study the Explanatory Notes but they do not help me in this regard. Therefore, I should be grateful for some clarification on the matter. I hope that we shall receive some elucidation on who appoints clerks to all schools.
Lord Peston: I, too, wish to ask a question or two for elucidation. I take it that we are still discussing maintained schools here and not any other schools. I am intrigued that the Bill uses the words "appointment" and "dismissal" with regard to clerks. However, it does not use the word "employment" with regard to clerks. Therefore, I ask whether there is some special significance in the word "appointment"? I would normally assume that whoever employs a person has the right to dismiss him or her. However, is a clerk in some relevant legal sense not employed but appointed? If "appointment" here simply refers to the employer and we then assume that a governing body is the employer, there can be no doubt whatsoever who is the correct body to dismiss a clerk. However, if I am completely wrong and the clerk is not employed but appointed and that means something different, it does not follow logically that the governing body is the relevant body to dismiss him, in which case the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, is correct to say that as that is the appropriate body we ought to make it clear that it is the relevant body or rather the legally entitled body.
However, no problem arises of the kind that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, mentioned if the governing body is the employer of the person we are discussing. If the governing body is the employer, it may dismiss that person. That is very clear. I raise these points in the form of questions. It is important that we have been enabled to do so as a result of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch.
"( ) The local education authority shall make the instruments of government for all its maintained schools and shall determine matters to be dealt with in such instruments, the form of such instruments, and the review and variation of such instruments."
Page 14, line 6, at end insert "provided that, for a foundation or voluntary aided school, the body shall be the governing body"
"prescribing the body by whom any such appointment is to be made and any restrictions or other requirements relating to any such appointment".
In foundation and voluntary aided schools, that should be a matter for the governing body. Paragraph (c) refers to,
"the dismissal of any such clerk and the procedure to be followed in connection with his dismissal".
For a foundation or voluntary aided school, the decision to dismiss a clerk should be taken by the governing body.
6.30 p.m.
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