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Baroness Blatch: I shall not answer on behalf of the Minister as I do not know what the response is for the generality of cases. However, my local school had a clerk to the governing body for about 35 years. He was a volunteer, as were the governors. Therefore, he was not employed but he had duties under the law. He was appointed by the governors. He carried out the job extremely well. It was for the governors to appoint him and for them to say that they no longer wished to retain him as clerk if they were dissatisfied with him.
Lord Peston: In that case, the amendment is not needed. If it is simply the case that the governing body
appoints the person, it can "unappoint" the person. There is not a problem there and I do not see what the fuss is about. However, I am sure that there is some subtlety here that I am completely missing.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I shall try to enlighten my noble friend Lord Peston. I shall, as it were, "park" for a moment the volunteer clerk mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. Clerks in many schools are paid. As regards foundation and voluntary-aided schools, the governing body is the employer. As regards community and voluntary-controlled schools, the LEA is the employer. That is the employment position.
I take a moment to eulogise clerks. Anyone who has served on a governing body—I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, will agree with this point—will know that clerks are truly vital people. They play an important role in ensuring that governing bodies operate effectively. It is their job to ensure that procedures are followed. They keep in touch with local education authorities. Many have developed further expertise through training and understand issues of law. It becomes obvious if such clerks are lacking in a governing body. Governing bodies can get into difficulties if they do not have an efficient clerk. Many schools have excellent clerks but that is by no means universal.
From my own experience and from my more recent experience at the department I have been struck by the fact that there has not previously been a common understanding of the role that a clerk should play. They play different roles in different schools. That is why—this is an incidental point—we have commissioned the development of a training package for school clerks. We have ready to deliver next year a training package that we believe will be relevant to all school clerks whether they are employed by LEAs, individual governing bodies or whatever. It will include a self-study option, so that we can provide some support at last for this band of people who do such an important and valuable job.
I turn to Amendment No. 110. The regulations we envisage making under Clause 22 will largely roll forward the existing requirements in Part IV of the 1999 School Government Regulations. It is an important principle enshrined in those regulations that the governing body should select its own clerk. The clerk is answerable to the governing body and should be chosen by it. The existing regulations provide for foundation, foundation special and voluntary-aided schools to appoint their own clerks. In community, community special and voluntary-controlled schools the clerk is still, as I said, selected by the governing body but, as with other staff appointments in those schools, is appointed and employed by the local education authority. I hope that that makes the position clear for my noble friend.
I turn to Amendment No. 111. In the rare cases where it is necessary to dismiss a clerk, the governing body will normally take that decision. Governing bodies retain the right to determine that they do not wish to accept the services of a particular individual,
even where clerking is being provided under a subscription buy-back service from a local education authority.We believe that it is right that governing bodies should select and have the power to dismiss the clerk and we shall replicate that principle in the new regulations. As I say, that is in keeping with the principle of individual school autonomy and will be appropriate in the vast majority of cases.
I address both Amendments Nos. 110 and 111. I hope that those reassurances are helpful. Let me now turn to the exceptions to this general position. The existing regulations already prevent governing bodies of voluntary-aided or foundation or foundation special schools appointing or dismissing a clerk without the local education authority's consent if the school has lost its delegated budget and to allow the LEA to direct that a clerk in one of those schools should be dismissed.
However, where things go wrong it may be appropriate to allow a local education authority, or the relevant contractor where it has taken over the local education authority's functions, to be nominated as a prescribing body. A good clerk can play a crucial role in helping to turn a failing school around and it may be appropriate in those circumstances to allow a local education authority in supporting a school in special measures to designate who that clerk should be. The Ofsted representative on our Advisory Group on Governance has told the group that Ofsted has observed that placing a good clerk on a governing body of a school in special measures can play a significant role in training and supporting that governing body to play a more effective role.
Amendments Nos. 110 and 111 would remove any possibility that the local education authority could make decisions about clerking in any foundation or voluntary-aided school which had had its delegated budget removed. The local education authority has a responsibility to intervene where schools are in difficulties and we believe that its powers should apply equally to all maintained schools whatever their category. I agree that the principle of self- determination is an important one for schools. I also recognise that in voluntary-aided and foundation schools the governing body is the employer. But where schools have serious weaknesses or are in special measures it is surely right that special arrangements should apply to allow for the removal of a weak clerk in order to allow the governing body to take the school forward.
I turn to the Question whether the clause shall stand part of the Bill. As I said, the clause replicates without amendment provisions that are currently contained in Schedule 11 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. It is required because Schedule 11 will be repealed by the Bill. It will enable the Secretary of State to make regulations relating to the appointment and dismissal of clerks. Good clerking is the key to good governance and key provisions relating
to appointment and dismissal should be the subject of some regulation. The clause is therefore a necessary part of the Bill.I hope that Members of the Committee will accept that in the vast majority of cases governing bodies will continue to select and dismiss their own clerk and that we should be able to make appropriate provisions with regard to clerking through regulations. With those explanations and assurances I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment and her opposition to clause stand part.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: That is extremely helpful. The education of young people and children is what we are about. If a school is failing, they need all the help that they can get. I take the Minister's remarks about the clerk's role in that regard; it is absolutely essential.
On regulations, I wonder whether the LEA could work in collaboration with the diocesan authorities. In my diocese, quite a lot of that already goes on and is very helpful. I should not want to make that binding but it would be a helpful addition; perhaps the phrase, "in consultation with" could be used. I hope that the clause will stand part because we do not live in a perfect world and there are circumstances in which it is necessary to have regulation of clerking—of the way in which people are appointed and dismissed.
Lord Peston: I have no particular interest in the sub-set of schools; I have an interest in clerks in general. The clause should clearly stand part of the Bill; it would be absurd if it did not. I am a little troubled about one aspect of my noble friend's reply.
In my experience, one can have a perfectly good clerk—perhaps an excellent clerk—who simply does not get on with the chairman or the governing body. One sometimes has to accept that one has a simple choice: either the governors go or the clerk goes. That is not the clerk's fault; the people concerned simply do not get on. I can imagine a similar case in your Lordships' House, which, happily, has never happened to me. Those of us who chair committees are simply told that X is our Clerk. I could be given a Clerk—I hypothesise entirely—whom I did not like. That has never happened; I have always had marvellous Clerks. I have no right to dismiss a Clerk. Goodness knows what would happen if I suddenly found myself in that position.
One has to accept the fact that, as the right reverend Prelate said, this is not a perfect world and that we do not all get on with each other. We therefore must have procedures whereby one simply has to say to a clerk, "Look, you are very good but you have to go". That is the reverse of what my noble friend the Minister was saying. I hope that she is not saying that one can only get rid of a clerk who is not very good. Sometimes, one has to get rid of a clerk who may be too good but the governing body cannot cope with him.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: I hope that I did not give the impression suggested by my noble friend Lord Peston. I was trying to be specific. The relationship
between a clerk and a governing body, in the vast majority of cases, is a relationship between all good people trying to work together. That occasionally does not work. That is for them to work out. This is a different instance; we are concerned purely with the case in which a school is in real trouble and how the position could affect the way in which it tries to get out of trouble. I say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn that I am happy to talk further with him about a collaborative approach.6.45 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: I am sure that there are clerks who occasionally have not got on with their governing body. However, the level of dependency of a governing body on a clerk is usually such that it is only too pleased to have him; he receives the mail, reads all the bumf that comes into school and alerts teachers, head teachers and governors to what they should be thinking about or doing. A clerk is one of a governing body's best friends, not one of its worst.
I do not think that the sky would fall in if the situation was not regulated. I accept absolutely the point made by the right reverend Prelate. One difficulty with regulation is that when things start to go wrong with schools, some schools are in denial and will not seek help but others are desperate for help and are very happy to collaborate. I do not believe that there is anything that stands in the way of an LEA collaborating with a Church school or a maintained school. Schools are free to seek that help. I should not want to stand in the way of that.
Another problem with regulation—I have not yet seen many flexible regulations—is that Bills can be broad-brush painted canvases but when regulations are produced, they are "one size fits all" regulations. Very few regulations state, "This is how you should do something". Some schools may have their own way of doing things. My worry is about the straitjacket of regulations and the fact that one constantly has to hold the manual in one hand while trying to be good governors and good clerks to governing bodies. I have a natural dislike of regulations. They should exist only when absolutely necessary.
I have a question in passing, although I do not expect the Minister to answer it tonight. It would be interesting to know how many sets of regulations will be spawned by the Bill. We are only up to Clause 22 but we have already passed a fair number of regulations.
The language of regulations is very off-putting. The Plain English Society has been fighting for years for us to do something about regulations. What do we do when regulations are complex and legalistic? We produce guidance. That means that in this area there will be: an Act of Parliament; cross-referencing from one piece of legislation to another because we have not consolidated enough; regulations; and guidance or guidelines on how to operate the regulations. There may also be a poor clerk to a governing body—that is the subject of my amendment—who has to interpret all of that for the governors. The more flexibility that there is in regulations, the better.
The right reverend Prelate made an important point. When schools need to seek help, they should not be inhibited; they should be free to do so—we should not stand in the way of that. I shall not press the amendment but there is at least something for the Minister to reflect on between now and the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 111 not moved.]
Clause 23 [Federations of schools]:
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