| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: That is right, although in the case of Anglican schools, each school is an autonomous body. It is a larger issue for the Roman Catholic Church. Relations between dioceses and schools have improved over the 30 years or so that I have been playing this particular role in one form or another. That is because there is greater dependence on the resources which a diocese can provide in the variety and complexity of education from when I was first ordained in Southwark 40 years ago. The whole position has changed. However, the point raised by the noble Baroness is more a question for the Roman Catholic Church in law. Our schools tend to be autonomous, and there are not too many. The role of the diocese is in the appointment of governors and in giving advice to the "family" of schools in getting a sense of direction across an area.
Lord Peston: I am working hard to try to take the amendments seriously. I shall try, but if I fail I hope that Members of the Committee will forgive me. When I first saw this part of the Bill, I wrote, "Oh no" in the margin because, like the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, I thought that this was taking us back to the pre-Taylor days. However, it does not remotely do so. I can see no reading of this that could possibly take us back to the pre-Taylor days. The right reverend Prelate is right to remind us, first, how appalling the pre-Taylor days were for many local authorities, and, secondly, that that cannot happen here. It cannot happen for the obvious reason that this is all permissive. This is not the Government or anyone else using powers to say, "Your two schools will federate. You will have your own governors, having had separate ones". As the Bill allows for federations of federations, the next stage will be to say, "You two federations will not federate", and so forth.
As mentioned by the noble Lady, Baroness Walmsley, the provisions in the clause will be used only if schools, opting for "jointness", co-operation or any other word that has the same meaning, feel that they cannot do so on an ad hoc basis or by other means of acting jointly, but need a more formal measure. Therefore, it seems to me—perhaps my noble friend will confirm this in due course—that each will propose to the other that that is the correct interpretation. The schools will say, "We are getting closer together for all sorts of things. This particular Act of Parliament", if
such it becomes, "enables us to federate. Don't you think that would be a good idea?". That seems to be a perfectly sensible way of moving forward if we believe that "jointness" is a good thing, which in many cases we do, and that federation is the way to achieve it. I have some difficulty, as have other noble Lords, in trying to think of enough jointness to lead to federation. Presumably the Government have one or two examples. I would think that most co-operation could be done on an ad hoc basis.The right reverend Prelate seemed to assume that somewhere out there is a group of revolutionary Catholics or Protestants who will take over a school. That group would have to find another revolutionary group with which to federate; it cannot do so on its own. That is why I have difficulty taking the amendment seriously. The mind boggles at the idea that there are great numbers of governing bodies, all of which are suddenly about to break loose and federate. Given my philosophical views, I should love to see that, but I find it impossible to believe.
Let us take another example. When my children were young, there was Highgate Primary School—I would not describe it as the local secular or atheist school, but if we look for its ethos, that would be it—and St Michael's School down the road. The schools were simply separate. Even if this law were passed, it is impossible to believe that the two schools would federate under any circumstances. Therefore, I cannot see the problem.
However, let us suppose that two schools co-operated closely. At my first secondary school, the boys' school was next door to the girls' school. Two such schools might get closer; the boys and girls might get closer and the two schools may federate and set up a joint governing body. I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that the character of both schools would change, but the whole point of the federation would be that the character of both schools would change. Therefore, to have an amendment which seeks to provide that the two schools would get closer together and that somehow we can define a concept of character which they must not change is ridiculous. The fact is that they would co-operate. From then on, some of the boys would be taught by some of the women teachers and so on. I do not think that that would be a bad thing.
Therefore, I am particularly opposed to subparagraph (1A) of Amendment No. 113, which states that nothing should allow for the change of character. I should like to see character evolving through time. That is quite different—despite my views on religious schools—from anything being a threat to the religious nature of the school. This section could not possibly have that effect in any real world. Therefore, I reply that I have tried to take this matter seriously. I have particularly tried to take it seriously because of my original opposition to the whole idea of federation. On the assumption—following on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, said—that we like co-operation as a way of working within education, this gives us a step forward. I doubt very
much whether many schools will decide to federate, but if they want to try the experiment, I certainly feel that they should be given the chance.
Lord Dearing: I wish to pick up a point made by the right reverend Prelate. He said, "It is not just the school, but there are other interests". Suppose we had an area where there is one Church secondary school but 10 primary Church schools. If that Church secondary school disappeared into federation and lost its character, the children's lives, as their parents see it, would be affected. So the authority of the diocese could legitimately be involved.
However, that is not the point that I want to raise. I want to suggest that the Government should not have one model federation in mind but should be open to different varieties. Perhaps I may give an example from higher education. The Church higher education college at Roehamption comprises one Anglican college, one Methodist college, one Roman Catholic college and the Froebel Institute which does not have any affiliation.
In that college there is one governing body for the college, but each of the individual foundations has its own governing body with reserved powers and responsibilities. Moving on, Roehampton Institute has federated with the University of Surrey. Three major responsibilities and powers are reserved to the governing body of Roehampton. Therefore, in the federation one has one body with overall responsibility for the federated entity. But that does not deny the possibility, and, indeed, the desirability of having reserved to the governing bodies of the constituent elements, certain powers and responsibilities. That would be one way to maintain particular distinctions which the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, and I dare say the right reverent Prelate were concerned to maintain.
In approaching this exciting idea, which I might have extended to a federation between a school and an FE college—I leave that to one side—the Government should keep an open mind about the opportunities and possibilities rather than prescribe.
7.15 p.m.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I did not intend to intervene in the debate but it has become a debate on the whole issue of federation. Later we are due to discuss clause stand part, but I suspect that that debate will be somewhat truncated as we shall largely have discussed the matter.
People are confusing the concept of co-operation and clustering with that of a federation. I read to Members of the Committee subsection (3) of Clause 23:
- "Where any schools are federated by virtue of this section, they shall
I join with the right reverend Prelate, with the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, in thinking that, "Yes, schools getting together
and co-operating is an absolutely splendid thing". We have had too much of schools standing on their own and competing with each other. It is clear that working together is a sensible idea. In Guildford, for example, the secondary schools work together. There is a certain amount of sharing, in terms of the curriculum and specialist subjects and so on. But perhaps there is not enough.Let us take what happened to a group of primary and secondary schools in Guildford at the time we were talking about the King's Manor—now King's College—problems. It was proposed to create an education action zone. A group of half-a-dozen primary schools and two secondary schools were to be put into that education action zone. They would each lose their boards of governors. There would be a single governing body for the whole zone.
I was immediately worried, partly because the primary school of which I was a governor was one of those proposed for the zone. I recognised how important it was for that primary school, which had been in special measures but was moving out very fast, to have its own board of governors because it helped to create a good feeling. The board reflected the local community. That is what boards of governors do. For a school it is an important channel of communication into the local community.
There are great dangers in moving down this route without thinking hard about it. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that this is a permissive rather than a statutory regulation: we are not forcing schools. I am worried that in some hands the whole concept of clustering will become more than just clustering. It will push schools into the concept—as they were trying to push on us with the Education Act—of doing away with the individual ethos of schools and with the individual governing boards.
We must be a little wary of the provision. I suspect that we shall end up by leaving it on the statute book. It is vitally important that we recognise that it is permissive on the statute book and that it is not mandatory on schools to go down this route. Schools should not be pushed along this route for spurious economies of scale, which are pushed on them either by the Secretary of State or by local education authorities which are short of funds.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page