Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page


Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, in particular as my question will take her back to her last but one sentence. Are figures available to illustrate the average cost per enduring power of attorney of registration and all the other processes which she mentioned in her remarks?

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, in setting the fee, an assessment was made in relation to how much are the real costs. I do not have that information to hand, but certainly if the noble Lord wishes to write to me, I shall do my best to satisfy his interest in that regard.

It may be helpful if I give an example of the exercise of the discretion. Mr A is a client of the PGO. He lives with his wife in a house that they own. His income and capital exceed the minima that would automatically qualify for remission but his expenses are also significant. He receives remission on the ground that if he did not he and his wife would be forced to sell their house to raise capital. I am happy to confirm that the PGO will notify all those who have made applications since the order came into being advising them of the remissions procedure that is now available. Furthermore, the PGO is already taking steps to

9 May 2002 : Column 1351

ensure that the office itself raises these issues with those whom it believes may be entitled to such remission. We are taking proactive steps in that regard.

Before going on to respond to some of the specific points that have been raised, I wish to cite one more example of how the new fees scheme will protect the PGO's poorest clients. The difficulties of the Public Trust Office were exposed to all by the PAC report published in 1999. One of the actions that we have taken since then was to seek to devolve the PGO's in-house receivership work to panel receivers, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile; they are professionals, usually solicitors, who are better able to provide a more local and professional service. However, some in-house receivership clients remain. These tend typically to be people who have no one to act as receiver for them or there are complexities which make them resource-intensive to manage. The majority will fall below the £16,000 capital threshold.

Those cases involve liaison with other agencies which are stakeholders in the care of our most vulnerable clients and tend to require a more senior grade of staff to manage them. The cost is estimated at £2,535 per annum per case. The PGO expects to be left with about 50 cases where clients would not be exempt fees on grounds of hardship under the current fees instrument. In most of those cases, the clients are very elderly or very ill and regrettably are unlikely to survive long.

Given the complexities and the opportunity costs involved in serving this small number of clients, the full cost in the very few cases where fees would normally be payable, the charges to receivership clients would have been £665 for the first year fee; £2,535 for the annual administration fee; and £1,390 for the winding-up-fee, compared with £500, £205 and £360 in protection cases involving private receivers. This would clearly be unacceptably high.

In view of the nature of the remaining client base and the impact of introducing steep increases in fees for a very small number of the PGO's most vulnerable clients, we will subsidise those clients' fees, as the noble Lord indicated. The subsidy will be from government funds rather than a cross-subsidy from other PGO clients. We believe that that system will work and work well.

I turn to some of the specific points raised. The noble Baroness raised the issue of parliamentary time and consultation. There have been suggestions that there was insufficient time for consultation regarding the rules laid before a Recess. As regards laying the rules, we have complied with the necessary procedures. The new rules were laid before Parliament on 27th March and came into force on 17th April. That was in accordance with the normal 21-day rule for this type of secondary legislation.

I stress that such measures have been taken in accordance with the normal procedure. However, I accept the concern that the laying of the regulations coincided with Easter. That was a regrettable result of the proximity of Easter to the financial year-end.

9 May 2002 : Column 1352

I have already apologised for the fact that the Answer given in the other place appears to have been inaccurate. It was certainly accurate and correct when it was written. Unfortunately, publication was delayed because of the Easter Recess, and therein lies the difficulty.

The noble Baroness also asked when the next fee increase would be. We do not know the date of that but the PGO reviews its fees every year and fees may go up or down depending on the cost of the service. However, we are hopeful that for the next two or three years fees will need to increase only in line with inflation. The PGO will also be making efficiency improvements which we hope will exert downward pressure on costs.

I turn to the two major issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. They appear to be the issues arising out of the change in the team working and also the supervision by the PGO of the panel of receivers. The Lord Chancellor's Department has an agency-monitoring unit. It monitors on a day-to-day basis. There is a ministerial advisory board which my colleague in the Lord Chancellor's Department, Miss Winterton, chairs. It meets quarterly to review performance and the PGO produces annual reports setting out that performance. Therefore, there is a robust scheme for monitoring.

In relation to the change that has taken place from case working to team working, we entirely understand the attraction of having a named caseworker. Having a named caseworker worked well in many cases but by no means all. In some cases, the client and the caseworker did not work well together. Individual case working meant that when a member of staff was away or left there was a risk of lack of continuity.

Finally, individual case working was not the best way to develop consistency of practice. The growth in the number of cases with which the PGO deals also necessitated a change. Team working offers the opportunity to develop better continuity and consistency, but I sympathise with the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I can say to him that the issue will be kept under review and the PGO is determined to have the most efficacious means of delivering well targeted help and support to the people whom it serves. Therefore, the process which we now have in place will continue unless and until such time as change seems to be indicated.

As regards supervision by the PGO, I want to reassure the House that as a result of the concerns expressed the panel receivers work under a more structured supervisory framework. They agree a service level agreement with the PGO at the start of their appointment to the panel, which includes an outlying framework of the level of service the clients can expect. In addition, they are subject to the same supervision as other professional receivers and the PGO reviews their annual accounts as well as the requirement on the panel receiver to seek specific court authority for a number of actions such as sale or purchase of property. The court and the PGO continue

9 May 2002 : Column 1353

to ensure that clients whose affairs are managed by panel receivers receive an appropriate level of protection.

When the PGO hands over cases to panel receivers, they are accompanied by a brief review of the client, details of income arrangements, expenditure projection, property details, investment holdings, an up-to-date account and other relevant information. Therefore, the PGO aims to ensure that cases which transfer to panel receivers are in good order for panel receivers to manage them in the future.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords on the points raised today. If, having considered what has been said, noble Lords feel that there are further and other matters which need to be explored, I shall be happy to respond. I want to re-emphasise that those rules offer the opportunity for clients of the PGO to be charged as fairly as possible for the services offered by that organisation and that the new fees recognise the need to protect the finances of the poorest and they do that. The PGO will continue to seek every opportunity in the future to consult with the relevant organisations to ensure that any policy affecting fees, such as remission and fee levels, continues to reflect a just system of assessment of each individual circumstance. With that explanation, I hope that noble Lords will find themselves content.

Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I shall be brief. I am grateful to the Minister for that response. I am grateful in particular for her obvious commitment to fairness; a more tailored service to meet clients' individual needs; to a review process; and to notify everyone who may not have been aware of the new remission scheme and of subsidy schemes in particular circumstances.

Noble Lords have spoken from all sides of the House and I hope that we shall soon have the opportunity again to debate such vital people-centred issues. It is easy to see the debate as about an organisation, the Public Guardianship Office, but it is really about people with mental incapacity. We really must be sure that they are always in the forefront of any such discussion.

This House is now aware that there has been a great deal of concern about the Public Guardianship Office. The reforms and changes, including changes to fees and to how we look after those with a mental incapacity, must be better monitored. I hope that this debate will have played a small part in making sure that this is so. I was pleased to see the explanation of the remission scheme which appeared on the website today.

On this occasion I do not intend to test the opinion of the House. To have done so might have meant that I would need the protection of the master myself. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page