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Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. No doubt inadvertently, she said nothing about improved accounting procedures.
Perhaps she will be kind enough to write to me on that matter at a later date. In the mean time, I do not intend to move my Motion for an humble Address.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.36 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 8.31 until 8.36 p.m.]
Education Bill
House again in Committee on Clause 23.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 113:
- Page 14, line 19, at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: I am responding now to the Minister's reply to Amendments Nos. 113 and 114.
I am largely reassured by much of what the noble Baroness said in regard to Amendment No. 113. As I understand it, there is absolutely no way in which the nature, ethos or character of a school can be changed as a result of belonging to a federation. Even if a governing body thought it was a good idea and wished to relinquish its ethos as part of joining a federation, there is a procedure that it would have to go through in the normal course of events to change the character of the school. So I am reassured about that.
I do not know if something along those lines will appear in regulations or where it will be stated. There may be some schools which will believe that that is one way of changing the ethos of a school—for example, where there is a build-up of people of the same mind as the noble Lord, Lord Peston, who would like to relinquish the religious character of a school. It is important, therefore, to have that reassurance, but I wonder whether it will be built into the statute.
I cannot help feeling quite vexed about the example given by the noble Baroness of infant and junior schools. Certainly I have been present when infant and junior schools have merged and observed the pain and anxiety that it caused to the schools. But almost always it was the right thing to do. As mixed junior and infant schools, they became better for being one school rather than two.
This House fought very strongly, and defeated the Government by one vote only, for a little church school that had been there for a couple of hundred years which wished to keep its separate infant and junior school governing bodies. It went to another place, where that decision was brutally overturned, and we lost that—and here we are now saying that it is a jolly good thing to come together as a federated school under one governing body. I am sorry; it was the other way round. It is no comfort to that school.
We had a part debate about pre-Taylor groups. I tried quickly to write down the words of the noble Lord, Lord Peston. He said:
As the first federations start to be formed, some schools will start to feel pressure. In an area where there are half a dozen schools, of which three or four come together, the other schools may feel pressure to become part of the federation. My worry is that, so far as I know, there is no limit on the number of schools that can come together as a federation—unless a figure is to be included in the regulations. It would be helpful if the Minister could answer that point when she replies to the other matters that I want to raise.
If the number is too high, the schools lose something. I believe that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who raised the point that a school gets a great deal of comfort from knowing that on a daily basis governors are taking an interest in it and passing through on both an informal and a formal basis. They become known not only to the children and the parents but to the teachers and staff. The smaller the school, the more important that is. That will not be the case.
In urban areas the proximity of schools is manageable but in rural areas the distance between schools is considerable. It is possible that from one term to the next schools may not even know who the governors are and will not see them. This is an important point to be taken into account.
The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, who is not in his place, talked about schools themselves having some governing body functions and the overarching single governing body having other functions. I do not believe that such an idea is contained in the legislation or that that is a proper reading of it. However, there is a very good argument for subsidiarity; namely, that some things are better done at school level than by the governing body overall. I do not know whether that will be a consideration.
As regards the regulations that will be produced under Clause 23(4), many of the areas of concern are covered, but perhaps I may refer to one in particular. I do not believe that there is a trial period for a school entering a federation. The formation of a federation is in itself something of a leap in the dark for some schools. What looks good on paper may not turn out in practice to be what they hope for. I do not know whether a trial period has been considered.
Secondly, although the regulations will cover a governing body leaving a federation, and even the dissolution of the federation itself, will there be a fixed period before the end of which a school will not be able to reverse its decision? A school having opted in to a federation, what will the procedure for opting out if it feels that too much of its autonomy has been compromised and that the federation has not delivered what it hoped for?
I believe that the Minister covered my final point, but perhaps I may check it again. To give an example, if we take a foundation school, a voluntary aided school, a community school and possibly a maintained special school, not only are they different in nature—and we have dealt with the nature, characteristics and ethos of a school—they also have very different governing body responsibilities. For example, in the case of a foundation school, the school itself, not the LEA, is responsible for staffing. I understood the Minister to say that all of that is unaffected by these provisions—that a foundation school will continue to appoint its own staff, that the LEA will continue to be the employer of the staff in a community school. I understood her to say that those areas are completely unaffected and that the governing body will have to take into account that for each school a different set of rules operates in terms of staffing and certain procedures.
Earlier, I raised a point with the right reverend Prelate about possible tensions between diocese and faith schools. We chatted informally about the matter following our debates in Committee. I take his point that this is more of an issue for Roman Catholic schools than it is for Anglican schools; but it needs to be addressed. To my knowledge, the diocesan authorities have more of a practical, almost day-to-day input into the running of a Catholic voluntary aided school than Anglican dioceses do into their schools. That is another constitutional point that will need to be thought through in terms of federation.
Before I decide what to do about the amendment, I should be grateful if the Minister would touch on some of those points. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: My amendment is grouped with this one; therefore, it is appropriate that I should reply before the Minister speaks again.
I was attempting to be helpful to the Minister. There are deep issues as regards the relationship of schools within a federation which are of a different character and have a different foundation. We are talking in the case of voluntary aided Church schools—and, I suspect, all voluntary aided schools whatever their background—about premises which are owned for a particular purpose by the trustees. I find it difficult to get my mind around the arrangements that pertain for the appointment of staff in individual schools. I do not know how the provisions will be exercised by an overarching governing body involving many people unless there are specific directions in the legislation. It is not only the foundation governors who appoint staff in a voluntary aided school; it is the whole governing body, in which the foundation governors are the majority. So some real issues arise.
If this idea is promoted as a possible way forward—and I genuinely wanted to attempt to do that—engagement with the diocese could be a lever for bringing this about rather than, as it has been perceived, a veto to prevent it happening.
In her response, the Minister did not give me the Ascension Day gift that I was looking for. However, she made some very helpful comments which I shall want to reflect on. We may need to return to this matter on Report.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: Before the Minister replies, perhaps I may ask for clarification on one point. There has been a great deal of discussion on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Dearing, and the right reverend Prelate on the concept of a confederation of schools, a group of schools coming together. However, the conception has not been that on such occasions—as is quite clear from the Bill—they would be run by a single governing board. Am I right in thinking that the Bill as drafted does not conceive of a federation where each individual school could retain its own governing board and there would be an overarching governing board?
"(1A) Nothing in this Chapter shall provide for the character of a school to be changed as a result of federation.
(1B) In subsection (1A) "character" shall be defined as including admissions arrangements; religious character; single sex or co-educational policy; or the status of a school as a foundation, voluntary aided or community school or academy."
"I have no reason to share the anxieties of the noble Baroness, as I read the Bill".
I want to believe the noble Lord—I hope he is absolutely right—because then I need not worry about some of the points that I raised.
8.45 p.m.
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