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The Earl of Sandwich: As the Minister knows, I, too, am a supporter of citizenship education and I believe that the Children's Consortium on Education has a powerful voice in the area. It, too, supports the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Massey.
I declare an interest as a foundation governor of a school in west Dorset where we have a degree of pupil participation. However, we like to see the Government giving more encouragement by putting the provision on the face of the Bill. Children may not know much about the Education Bill—nor do I believe do many adults—but they are aware of the current workload on teachers and the new responsibilities which schools have under a succession of Bills. In my experience,
older children benefit enormously from participation and discussion, especially on their own environment and the working practices of the school. Therefore, there is a two-way benefit.Moreover, there is evidence that participation leads to a higher level of attainment, as the noble Baroness, Lady Warmsley, has already said, as well as to qualities such as motivation and engagement. I want to quote from the report of Professor Bernard Crick's Advisory Group on Citizenship published in 1998. I am sure that the Minister knows it:
- "It is obvious that all formal preparation for citizenship in adult life can be helped or hindered by the ethos and organisation of a school, whether the pupils are given opportunities for exercising responsibilities and initiatives or not; and also whether they are consulted realistically on matters where their opinions can prove relevant both to the efficient running of a school and to their general motivation for learning".
- "failing to place pupil participation on a statutory footing would risk sending the message to schools that listening to and involving pupils is desirable 'best practice', but not essential and not a basic human right of all children and young people".
The second part of the amendment is so important. We can all live with paragraph (a), but to encourage schools under paragraph (b), which seeks to give weight to the expressed views of pupils, is to make a move forward.
Lord Peston: My noble friend Lady David told me that I had to participate in the debate on this amendment as she could not be here—and I always do what I am told.
I strongly support the amendment. I should say to my noble friend Lady Massey that we are not discussing democracy here; we are discussing benevolent despotism. A school is run by the despots and we are asking them at least to show some response to those whom they are teaching. That does not mean that benevolent despotism is not better than many other forms of despotism.
I agree that it is not only a matter of asking young people for their views. The essence of the amendment concerns the response to what they say; to show, as the amendment states, that "due weight" is given to their views. That is not the equivalent of saying to pupils that they are right. Indeed, if you have any concept of citizenship at all, one of things that you have to learn is that a lot of the time you will be wrong. Pupils will have to learn that they will have their say and that there will be a response—and they will have to accept that one of the responses may be "You do not know what you are talking about", and sometimes that they do know what they are talking about.
If you are a teacher this kind of thing can be threatening. When I was at university—reverting to the subject of benevolent despotism—I was appointed head of department for life. Although I gave up the position long before that, I found it immensely threatening when this idea was put forward. I also
found it very frustrating in responding to what, in this case, students wanted. They typically said that they did not care for the pressure of examinations and wanted more course work. So I, being a benevolent despot, said, "Let us move in the direction of more course work". When the course work did not turn up, I said, "You are now going to fail this course because the date for the course work is such and such and you have not got any". They would then say, "Oh, we would rather have examinations"—to which the answer is, "I am sorry, but you gave your views and we responded to them. One of the things you have to learn as a citizen is that you bear the costs of the decisions you take".I exaggerate a little—although not in the case that I have in mind—but it does mean that if we go down this route, which I very strongly hope that we do, the pupils themselves must understand what it is that we are moving towards. The essence of this is the combination of listening and responding.
It may well be that the amendment is not well drafted but, in terms of everything that we have been doing for the past few days, if ever an amendment—or, perhaps, the concept of a possible amendment—should be accepted, it is this one. I believe that my noble friend the Minister should say either yes, she accepts the amendment, or that she does not like the drafting but will come back with her own amendment to cover precisely this issue. That would be a good thing. I do not wish to hear from my noble friend about guidance or the fact that it is already covered elsewhere.
This is a clear cut case where your Lordships' Committee—particularly having regard to our age group—can speak for young people and say that not only do we want this in the Bill but we very much expect our Minister—because she is the only one who can do anything about this—to come forward with a positive response.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: I, too, support the thrust of the amendment. I am not sufficiently expert in parliamentary or legal language to know whether the amendment is drafted correctly or how in legal terms words such as "best endeavours", "reasonable steps" and so on would be interpreted if a governing body was put to the test. But I am absolutely sure that the thrust of the amendment ought to be a part of what we are looking for in the improvement of educational standards, particularly with regard to secondary education. Therefore, I lend my wholehearted support to the amendment.
I am not sure that I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Peston. It seems to me that we need a provision on the face of the Bill, but that an interpretation in guidance will also be important in terms of how this is done and how the best endeavours are achieved. However, I lend my support to what the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, is trying to achieve.
Baroness Andrews: I want to indicate my support for the amendment with a reference to the kinds of things that are happening in schools where pupils have a direct input. I refer, for example, to anti-bullying
strategies and to positive behaviour strategies. There is tremendous variety in the practice of schools up and down the country. The spread of good practice is necessary. We need proper frameworks. I am not against advice: we need help in spreading good practice. Some schools are so much more successful than others and are involving pupils. Those qualities are sticking and are making a difference. Different children have different needs. In supporting the amendment we must seek to reflect that. In the areas of discipline and behaviour and the development of character there is particular benefit to be had from the amendment.
Baroness Blatch: Ascertaining the views of pupils on matters that affect them and, as far as possible, giving due weight to those views seems to me to be fundamental in schools. I am nervous about this becoming part of the legislation, and I shall come to that point in a moment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, gave a number of examples of very good practice. I can think of a number of schools which have schools councils which meet with the staff; they have mechanisms in place for voicing their concerns about, for example, better facilities for sixth form study areas, more effective use of technology, shaping the school day so as to be more effective, homework clubs and many other ideas. They have a "feet on the ground", commonsense, effective view of how matters can be improved for them.
The other method of ascertaining the views of pupils which was introduced by the Government when I was the Minister was the provision of a slot in the inspection procedures where the inspectors go to the parents and to the children to ask them about the school. Their discussion with the children is confidential; there are no staff present, so they are able to be uninhibited in expressing their views. They are given opportunities for a one-to-one interview if they specifically ask for it. The inspector will make a general comment on the performance of a school to the effect that it has or does not have a good relationship with its children as the case may be. That too is a very good idea.
I am concerned about this becoming part of statute and make the same point as the right reverend Prelate made; namely, how one measures reasonableness. For example, among children, just as among adults, there are some very quirky ideas. Some children are more proactive in making their views known. Sometimes, the more sensitive and more vulnerable children are the ones who do not say what would improve their lot at school.
So this is a difficult area. It is a tricky area for teachers. I am concerned about the way in which our community generally is becoming more litigious. Such a provision would provide an opportunity for children and/or parents—children are becoming pretty streetwise about claiming and exercising their rights—to enter into litigation. I am concerned about the kind of protection that would be needed for teachers if they were put in the position of being tested or challenged.
The last thing we want is to clog up the world of the tribunals or the courtrooms with claims that children made their voice heard and due weight was not given. The question could arise as to what was reasonable and whether due weight was given to something that a teacher thought impractical.
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