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Baroness Ashton of Upholland: We have had an interesting debate, which mirrors, in some ways, the debate that we have had in the ministerial team on how to approach this matter and how to get it right. I am aware of the views that have been expressed and recognise that people are saying to me, very clearly, that there is an important role for children and young people, which needs to be recognised.

Members of the Committee have their own experiences in this regard. Having chaired a school governing body, I know the value of involving children in thinking through issues such as bullying. At the risk of further delaying the Committee, I shall give a brief anecdote.

To work out where in a school children were worried about bullying, we took a plan of the school and asked young children to draw on the plan in red where they felt safe and blue where they did not. That helped us to redesign the school building. We used the pupils' involvement to support them. They illustrated, in that simple way, which parts of the school needed decorating or were areas in which bullying might be occurring. There are many approaches and methods that we need to consider when translating the principle into reality.

The Government's view is very clear. We cannot deal with this matter overnight; we need long-term investment, real commitment and incremental change to the way in which we do things. The biggest error that the Government could make would be to implement anything that was tokenistic in its approach and which did not genuinely value the contribution that young people make. That means facing some real challenges. For example, as the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, said, we must avoid consulting only the articulate and visible in schools or the wider community. We must ensure that the hardest to reach—some of our most vulnerable children—can participate and have an opportunity to be involved. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, will be interested to hear that I refer, for example, to children in care.

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We believe that we have a firm foundation on which to build. We set out in the schools White Paper some of the areas in which we have acted on our commitment to involve young people. Members of the Committee have mentioned citizenship and the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, referred to the role of schools councils. We have produced a secondary schools toolkit to support students' active participation, building on what we have done at the primary level.

We have also consulted young people within the department and are currently in the process of consulting on changes to the strategies for 14 to 19 year-olds. We have genuine commitments in this regard. The question is: how do we take them forward? We believe very strongly that participation can and should take many different forms if it is to fit the particular circumstances in which schools will find themselves and if it is to be relevant to the age of the children and the circumstances that best fit that.

For that reason, we believe that the best way forward is to go to statutory guidance. That will result in amendments to the Bill. That statutory guidance will, we believe, offer schools a flexible menu of options. From our point of view, that is the best way forward. It will allow schools to adopt the best-fit model of participation and adapt it over time as circumstances change.

Nevertheless, schools will not be able to do nothing. Schools will, as part of Ofsted's inspections, be checked—I assure the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, in that regard—to ensure that they are adhering to the guidance, just as they are checked in relation to all other statutory obligations. It is already consulting on a mechanism to ensure that young people's views are heard in schools generally and in inspection reports.

The Government are strongly of the view that that is the way forward. We wish to consider how best that can be achieved. I hope that my noble friend appreciates that we are committed to finding an effective way forward. We believe that statutory guidance would help us to do that. We would like to put that in place as soon as possible. On that basis, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

10.30 p.m.

Baroness Massey of Darwen: I thank noble Lords for their support and contributions this evening. We have had a most interesting discussion and many useful examples have been given. Of course, young people sometimes have to learn that they cannot have their own way. As a head of year in an inner-city school, I remember having to discuss with a group of pupils their wish to have more ventilation in the toilets because young people were smoking in there. It provided me with a good opportunity to hold a health education lesson.

I believe that it is the role of government to encourage consultation with pupils, and that that needs to be stated. After all, inspections take place only every four years or so, I believe. Rather than

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being hindered or frightened by them, teachers sometimes find that a democratic approach and consultation with pupils helps them to teach. I have certainly found that in my own experience.

I thank the Minister for her reply, which I obviously need to consider. I know that we shall return to this issue as there is much interest in it. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 27 agreed to.

Clause 28 [Governors' reports and other information]:

Baroness Sharp of Guildford moved Amendment No. 123:


    Page 17, line 19, leave out "shall" and insert "may".

The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 123, I shall speak also to the other amendments grouped with it. These amendments have been tabled at the behest of the National Association of Head Teachers and the Local Government Association. Both believe that the degree of prescription from the centre about annual reports is quite unnecessary. It makes the whole procedure highly bureaucratic. At a time when the Government are aiming to cut back on regulations and bureaucracy, the National Association of Head Teachers, in particular, questions even whether an annual report of this nature is required. Many schools issue regular newsletters to parents updating them on developments, and it is felt that these often provide as good a basis as anything else for discussions at the annual meeting between parents and governors.

In addition, the Education (No. 2) Act 1986 put into primary legislation that a school—both the head teacher and governing body—should give the local education authority the information that it needs to discharge its functions. It has always been assumed that that was the case but it was considered best to put it into legislation. The original wording appears in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998. But this Bill makes the existing powers and duties which were written into the Act subject to regulations being made. It exposes the degree to which the Government are gold-plating the whole regulation issue, if I may say so.

Any local education authority worth its salt has regular meetings and correspondence with its heads. Why should central government prescribe the documentation that has to be provided? Why cannot central government let go the reins and allow local education authorities to decide what is and what is not required?

The aim of the amendments is to give greater discretion to heads and local education authorities to decide what documentation is required and to minimise the degree of direction from the centre. I beg to move.

Baroness Blatch: I rise briefly to support the amendment. Frankly, this is the nanny state gone mad. Let us give schools the space. The annual report now produced by schools is well established. They now

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know that there is an expectation that they will produce information for parents. It seems to me that the requirements under this clause are unnecessary.

Lord Davies of Oldham: As the noble Baroness has indicated, Amendment No. 123 would leave it open to individual governing bodies to decide whether or not to produce an annual report for parents in any year. Under the amendment, if a governing body chose never to do so, parents would not receive the full information to which we believe they are all entitled if they are to become more involved in their child's education. We believe it is important that all parents continue to be given a copy of the report. We also encourage schools to place a copy of the report on their website, if they have one, in addition to giving a copy to parents. We believe that parents have the greatest interest in pressing for rising standards. If they are denied access to key information about how their child's school is performing, they will not be able to do that.

I recognise the representations made in the introductory comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and recognise also that there is validity in the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. We want to reduce the bureaucratic demands upon headteachers. We have reduced the amount of information which, by regulation, must be included. In doing so we have taken account of the concerns about bureaucratic burdens. However, we believe that governing bodies should not be able to decide that parents should not have any information. Surely, that is a step too far. We believe that this particular obligation in the report, which is fulfilled in many other varied ways by schools, guarantees that parents can be assured that they have the information they require in order to fulfil their obligations in respect of their child's education. On that basis I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw the amendment.


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