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The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I am grateful to the—
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I believe that the procedure of this House is invariable and that when the leaders of both parties respond to a Statement, the
maker of the Statement responds at the same time to those responses; thereafter, there is—noble Lords may correct me if I am wrong—20 minutes for questions from elsewhere in the House.I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, for their welcome to the Government's announcement. The noble Lord's comments were sweeter than those associated with bitter parliamentary warfare, which the noble Lord, in his most menacing—as well as his most engaging—manner announced is now happily avoided.
I accept that the noble Lord has been calling for a Joint Committee for some time. I also accept that the noble Baroness has often said in her speeches on this subject that reform of the House of Lords should not be considered separately from reform of Parliament as a whole, and that she, too, has called for a Joint Committee. It was right in this context that she should have mentioned the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank.
The Government accept that neither the Wakeham commission nor our White Paper, which was based on it, produced consensus. Now, as part of our continuing effort to achieve consensus, the Government propose a Joint Committee in which parliamentarians of great experience will consider these hugely difficult issues with the benefit of all of the opinion and discussion that has gone before, and will fashion composition options on which free votes will be taken in both Houses.
I assure the noble Lord that the usual channels will discuss the size and balance of the Joint Committee. I agree with him that it must be large enough to include a broad range of opinion, that the Cross-Benchers should certainly be involved and that there should be early discussions between the usual channels on composition. There is no merit, as the noble Lord was good enough to say, in political point-scoring over what has gone before; nor, I hasten to say, has there been any from the noble Baroness or the noble Lord.
The intractability of House of Lords reform has been proved by failure, during virtually a whole century, to achieve progress until the 1999 Act removed about nine-tenths of the hereditary Peers. The noble Lord asked whether the White Paper was shelved. That is a reasonable question and is not point-scoring. The White Paper is not shelved; nor is the report of the Wakeham commission. Neither succeeded in achieving consensus on its own. Plainly, the Joint Committee will wish to consider both with great care. It is a matter for the Joint Committee whether it brings forward options for both Houses to consider that are based on, or which closely resemble, any of the Wakeham or White Paper proposals. We simply have to wait and see, and await the outcome of the free votes.
Finally, I mention that the noble Baroness has said many times that reform of the House of Lords should be seen in the context of wider issues relating to Parliament as a whole. She will therefore have welcomed the sections in the Statement that said that
reform of the second Chamber has implications for the future of Parliament as a whole and, in particular, for the relations between the two Chambers.How fast it will be possible to proceed and how quickly the Joint Committee will proceed is of course a matter for it. But certainly it is the wish of the Government for the momentum to be maintained.
The noble Baroness asked very detailed questions about what the committee may consider in the context of specific powers of this House. She referred, in particular, to areas where there is currently no scrutiny on the part of this House. Although the committee will itself determine the issues which it wishes to consider within its remit, I believe that for the present it is sufficient to say that the passage in the Statement which says that the Joint Committee will be asked, as the first phase of its work, to report on options for the composition and powers of the House of Lords indicates that those issues will be very wide.
I hope that that covers all the major points raised by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. I appreciate the general welcome that they have offered and the description of "statesmanlike" which they applied to this new way forward.
3.31 p.m.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and apologise if I in any way got the arrangements wrong. On behalf of all Cross-Benchers, I welcome very much his indication that the Cross-Benchers will be represented on the Joint Committee. In that representation, I hope that it will be possible to take account of the numerical strength of the Cross-Benchers in your Lordships' House and the fact that the 2:2:1:1 formula does not necessarily guide us as well as it normally does when we come to a reform of this nature. I should also be grateful if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor could give some indication as to when terms of reference for the Joint Committee will be available.
The Lord Chancellor: As I have already indicated, the Government are sensitive to the interests of the Cross-Benchers, who are numerous. There is no doubt but that the usual channels will heed with care the representations from the Cross-Benchers about their inclusion in the Joint Committee. I anticipate that the usual channels will now proceed at a considerable pace to settle terms of reference. It will have been obvious to your Lordships that the Statement which I made was intended to, and did, herald the broad outlines of what the terms of reference should be. I do not doubt that they will be settled in that sense and, so far as concerns the Government, as soon as reasonably possible.
Lord Wakeham: My Lords, I believe that the noble and learned Lord the the Lord Chancellor is well aware that a Joint Select Committee would not have been my first choice in these matters. But I think that he is right to propose one in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. I shall be happy if the noble and learned Lord takes that as a welcome.
When the Joint Committee has considered matters and reported, I am afraid that ultimately we shall return to the question of the composition of this House. That is the only really difficult issue. I very much hope that that committee will take heed of three things that we said in our Royal Commission report. The first was that this House functions better if it is relatively free of political patronage. Secondly, the Members who serve here serve for a relatively long time. To us, that almost certainly meant that there should be no re-election. But, thirdly, that does not mean that the percentage that get here in that way need necessarily be the percentage that we recommended—indeed, in our report we recommended three percentages. Thus we had a degree of flexibility in relation to that matter. I hope that the Select Committee recognises the real value to the House of those principles.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I have no doubt that the Select Committee will consider with care both the report of the commission led by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, and what is said in these exchanges this afternoon. As to any point of detail about what the future may hold and about what the Joint Committee may consider it right to recommend, I do not believe that I should express any specific views myself. The Government should not now be seen to be giving any particular steers to the Joint Committee, given that it is charged to define options for both Houses to vote on in free votes. In fact, I go further. I consider that for me to do so would be misinterpreted at a time when the Joint Committee and its membership are about to be determined.
The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, like everyone else, I welcome the proposal for a Joint Committee to carry forward the reform of this House. Do the Government accept that, if a Joint Committee is to do justice to the complexity of the challenges ahead, it will be best equipped to do so if it draws its membership from a broad spectrum within this House and that that should include, among others, someone from these Benches?
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, I agree entirely with what has been said by the right reverend Prelate and by others. The Joint Committee should reflect a very broad spectrum. However, I shall not trespass into matters which are for the usual channels.
Lord Richard: My Lords, perhaps I may say how much I welcome the fact that the Government now seem to have—I use a neutral phrase—moved away from the proposals in the White Paper. Whether it is still alive and has any breath left in it is perhaps a matter for intricate discussion. But, first, so far as concerns these proposals, I believe that one should broadly give them a welcome.
Secondly, is my noble and learned friend aware that I also welcome the fact that he sees this next procedure as keeping up the momentum for reform? There are
two ways in which it could be presented: either as keeping up the momentum for reform or as kicking the proposals into the long grass. I have to say to my noble and learned friend—I am sure he is not aware of it—that, indeed, there has already been some briefing to the effect that this is designed to kick the matter into touch, or whatever other sporting metaphor one wishes to employ. I am very grateful for my noble and learned friend's confirmation that that is not the Government's intention .
Thirdly, if one is going to keep up the momentum, then these matters have to take place within a reasonably brisk measure of time. Is it the Government's intention that the options vote, if I may call it that, should take place before the Summer Recess, if at all possible, or do they intend that it should take a little longer? To me, as a naive and mere Back-Bench Member of this House, the analogy with the hunting Bill does not seem to be all that pleasant. But, broadly, I believe that the House should welcome these proposals as a firm step in the direction that most of us wish to go.
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