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Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, I am conscious of the opportunity that we have been given by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, to discuss this important issue. I am grateful to him for taking the initiative and providing the opportunity.
I declare what was an interest. Until 10 years ago I was the parliamentary adviser to the Federation of Master Builders but I gave up the post when I became the Chief Whip. Although since then I help the federation in any way that I can I am not a paid parliamentary adviser—it is more a declaration of a non-interest. But that is why I am interested in this issue.
I pay tribute to the manner in which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, responded to my inquiries. He sent me a long letter, which I have passed to the Federation of Master Builders. I am sorry to tell him not that it did not believe a word of it—of course it did—but that it was not satisfied with his explanation.
The news that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has suffered a bereavement in his family came as a complete shock to me. I join the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in his expression of sympathy.
The Federation of Master Builders states:
- "The FMB has no problem with the thrust of the changes to Part L of the building regulations. However, there are serious concerns about the implementation of those changes and particularly the introduction of the FENSA self-certification scheme".
- "We believe that the consultation process prior to the drafting of Statutory Instrument (SI) 440 was inadequate. Instead of limiting consultation to Building Regulations Advisory Committee and specialist associations, the consultation should have been much wider to include the representatives of the tens of thousands of construction firms that work in the general building trade".
The Minister should listen to the next few words very carefully. It continues:
- "The FMB and the FSB were not consulted".
I have read the documentation and I can understand that assumptions were made, but the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, hit the nail on the head. The crucial meeting in which they should have been involved was when the GGF made arrangements to consider eligibility for membership of FENSA. Those invited to attend the steering group included, among others, key stakeholders in the glazing industry, the District Surveyors Association, the House Builders Federation, the National Consumer Federation, the Institute of Consumer Affairs, the Trading Standards Institute, the British Board of Agrement, the British Standards Institution, the Law Society and ourselves—that is, the Government. In other words, the group did not include those whose livelihoods depend on dealing with the regulations. Although there are specialist double-glazing replacement firms, almost every member of the Federation of Master Builders replaces windows in the course of his other work. I ask the Minister to address that issue head on.
The cost of compliance is another issue. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer was very careful to point out that small builders have an option: they can either join FENSA, which costs money, or take the local authority route, which also has consequences. One estimate is that compliance could cost £150 per installation. Many small builders employ only one other person, perhaps a son or brother, but they are very proud people. They now face another £150 being added to their costs.
We know about the black economy, and we know about the unscrupulous individuals who tout for business without worrying about charging for VAT. They are otherwise known as cowboys. Small builders, on the other hand, pay VAT. They are law-abiding people. The regulations, however, will further distort the price that they must charge compared with that charged by those who operate in the black economy. The additional costs will put them in serious difficulty.
If they join FENSA, they will have to meet additional costs of perhaps hundreds of pounds. If there had been proper consultation, they could have made their arguments and perhaps persuaded the Government or those advising them that the fees should be much lower. The fact is that 20 per cent of the 20,000 small businesses represented by the Federation of Master Builders and the Federation of Small Businesses engage in the type of work covered by the regulations.I ask the Minister to take on board too the impact of the quality mark scheme, which is unarguably designed to improve standards and to meet our Kyoto undertakings. It is also designed eventually to remove from the air more than 1 million tonnes of pollution. Although the concept behind the Government's regulations is to be applauded and supported, perhaps those advising Ministers should be more sensitive to the fact that people depend on the decisions made by Ministers. In this case, some of those people feel that they have had a very raw deal.
I hope that the Minister will not take offence if I tell him that this is simply not good enough. However, the deed is done. This debate is intended to bring the issue out into the open, but there is no question of trying to thwart the Government's intention. Nevertheless, those people, who are fighting daily for their livelihood, deserve better treatment than this.
Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for introducing this debate. Like others, I express my condolences to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on his bereavement. I should also declare a couple of interests. I am a vice-president of the National Home Improvement Council. I am married to the right honourable Alan Beith, Member of Parliament for Berwick-upon-Tweed, who is raising this issue in another place. I am grateful not only to the Federation of Small Businesses and to the Federation of Master Builders, but to him for briefing for this debate.
Noble Lords have clearly expressed people's concerns about this issue. It is not that we do not support the Government's intentions. Noble Lords who have spoken already support those intentions, particularly on energy efficiency. I am particularly supportive of that goal and promoted a private Member's Bill on the very issue. The Government's failure, however, has been to conduct a proper consultation. That is the heart of the issue. Although I believe that they intended to conduct a proper consultation, it is clear from the representations which all noble Lords have received that that has gone slightly wrong. It has gone wrong particularly for small builders, who are most concerned about the issue. I hope that as a result of this debate the Minister will seriously take on board what has been said by noble Lords and by those outside the House about the consultation and see what can be done to minimise the problems. Despite what the Government say, the main concern particularly for small builders is—as the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, said—the cost of the regulations.
Another issue that needs to be sorted out is the way in which consultation is conducted. Some consultation has been done by the DTI and some by the DTLR. We need to be rather more careful when consultation affects more than one department.
Many different issues and schemes affect those who are trying to operate within these regulations, one of which, as previously mentioned, is the quality mark. That is one of the reasons why people feel confused. As various schemes are already in place, they wonder why the Government are not using them.
It is unusual to receive such a large postbag on a statutory instrument. However, in our neck of the woods, in Northumberland, several small builders suddenly found themselves affected by the regulations. As the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, explained, the provisions were originally not part of the general consultation. Specifically, it is the FENSA scheme and window replacements that are causing the problems. As a transition will be difficult for builders, I hope that the Government will consider ways in which they can assist them. We have already had some answers from the Government, who believe that they have consulted the right people. However, I think it is clear that there was a breach and they did not consult the right people. I hope that they will admit that and look at ways in which they can help builders.
The regulations' effect on the type of window chosen for installation is another issue. Different regulations apply depending on whether the windows have metal, wooden or plastic frames. Originally, the same regulations were to apply to all types of window. As I understand it, however, subsequent representations particularly from metal frame manufacturers said that different regulations should apply as metal frames tended to be narrower and use more glass, with a consequently greater solar effect. Although wood and plastic conduct heat very differently from metal, I find the figures somewhat surprising. I do not expect the Minister to be able to tell me now, but I should be very interested to know the precise scientific figures. As I suspect we are promoting rather bad science, I should be very interested to see the correct figures.
Builders are looking for the Government to say, "Yes, we fell down at one point in this consultation. However, we will work now with those builders and their representatives to see what we can do to avoid the trap in future and avoid causing confusion and unnecessary expense for small builders. We will make sure that we have a scheme that works". The main point made by the master builders federation and the Federation of Small Businesses was that if the smaller builders' organisations had been consulted perhaps we would have a different scheme. Perhaps we would have a better scheme as a result of consulting the whole range of people involved in this matter.
Let us face it. One often has one's windows replaced by a small firm of builders. If we are serious about energy efficiency—that is what the matter is about—we want a system that works and that we can record to determine whether it is having an effect. There is a question mark as regards whether effective recording
will take place to monitor how the measure is affecting energy efficiency. I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments. I hope that he will be positive. The representations that have been made to us have been positive in terms of asking for a better way forward.
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