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The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but there is still no scientific evidence to prove that BSE is transmissible to humans.

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Lord Moran: My Lords, I accept what my noble friend says, but the possibility clearly exists.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, pigs might fly.

Lord Moran: My Lords, that said, I should be grateful if the Minister would let me know whether I am right in thinking that the powers conferred on him enable him only to transpose EU legislation strictly into our domestic legislation and that they cannot be extended to cover things that we may think it desirable to cover in our national policy.

9.39 p.m.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I do not have a prepared speech because I came down from Leeds after a series of visits to abattoirs with the Meat Hygiene Advisory Committee to find this Prayer before the House. I declare my interest as a member of the Food Standards Agency.

I have no other interest except the protection of consumers, but I have been exposed for two years to the science of BSE. In another capacity I am the vice-chair of a large disability charity, so I know about variant CJD at first hand.

The facts show that this country is at last driving down BSE. That is because of the measures that we have in place. Despite that, we should remind ourselves that we still have more BSE than anywhere else in Europe. If we flinch for a moment in our measures, we shall undo all our good work to protect consumers and our superb farming industry, which needs the disease out of its herds.

There is a great danger that, as time goes by, we shall forget some of the lessons of what happened in the last BSE crisis and the lesson of the Phillips inquiry—that we have to be constantly vigilant. I have also been involved in the discussions on whether TSEs in sheep can develop into dangerous BSE prions. I have no doubt at all that the evidence shows that the BSE prion in cattle is easily transposed into humans, which is new variant BSE. I think that research from the various CJD people will shortly take forward that point. It is very complicated research.

Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that I shall not quote any paragraphs as I have not had time to do detailed research. However, when deciding this Motion, we should remember that there is really just one point. If we agree to the prayer, we shall lose all the other schedules. I have no view on the amendment, but some of it addresses other technical issues. I am simply pleading with the House that, in the interests of the community, our farmers and the health of our future herds, we should not agree to this prayer.

9.43 p.m.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, it seems to me that democracy demands that Parliament ensures that it understands what it is doing when it legislates. It is not the Government who legislate; it is Parliament. The fact that Parliament is implementing a piece of European legislation does not let us off the hook at all.

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What Parliament has to do is ensure that the Government are proposing satisfactory legislation in response to European legislation.

I listened very carefully to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and I think he was saying that this very long statutory instrument makes just three changes. I do not know why the changes have had to be made in this way, but I expect that there is a reason. However, it is very difficult for Parliament to know what it is doing when such lengthy regulations are necessary to make just three changes. I take it that the regulations were passed in another place under the negative procedure. If so, they were not discussed and were passed as long as no one objected. It seems to me that the Government simply must not do this.

If a change required by European legislation necessitates such a long, complicated document—it took me a long time to read it today and I suspect that I still do not understand it all—the change simply must be made by means of a Bill. It probably would not take Parliament long to pass such a Bill because it would be properly explained by the Government. The issues which have been raised would be addressed. Parliament would understand that it had to make the change because of European legislation and everyone would be satisfied. It is also incumbent on Parliament to ensure that it does not legislate without the understanding of those who will be affected by the legislation. It seems that there are people in the farming industry who have still not seen these regulations.

It is truly important that Parliament should not allow the Government to do this. It is not democratic, and that point should be taken very seriously. I shall not enter into the issues because I have not been involved in them before and would probably get them wrong. However, I hope that noble Lords on the other side of the House will not simply troop through the Lobby agreeing that the Government whom they support should pass legislation of this length, without any discussion, by means of the negative procedure. I do not think that that is good enough. If they agree to let the regulations stand, they would be saying that it is good enough. I hope that they are listening very carefully.

9.45 p.m.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I declare an interest in so far as I have been involved in agriculture all my life. I am bound to say that I have a certain amount of sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and, indeed with the Government in so far as the Animal Health Bill foundered on the rocks. However, that is one of the hazards of parliamentary life. Indeed, that is what Parliament is for.

As I understand it, the statutory instrument we are discussing contains much that was included in the Animal Health Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to this as an unusual procedure. I should think that it is. If I may say so, the Government are in a mess with regard to this matter. I refer again to the Animal Health Bill. They now have a statutory instrument of

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huge length, 221 pages, as has been said. There is now a Prayer to annul the statutory instrument, an amendment to the Prayer and an amendment to the amendment. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that that is a most unusual procedure.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred twice to the measure as a Bill. I know that that was a slip of the tongue but it was probably in the back of his mind and, indeed, in the minds of most of us that legislation of this length ought to be included in a Bill and not in a statutory instrument. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, produced some persuasive arguments to demonstrate that the Government need this measure to protect public health. I understand that. However, what is the hurry? This matter has not suddenly come upon the Government. They have had plenty of time to produce the necessary provisions with which to draw up a Bill. The measure ought to have been presented in the form of a Bill. As my noble friend Lady Carnegy said, one cannot present a measure comprising 221 pages to Parliament and say, "You must take it or leave it". The matter ought to be considered properly.

If the measure is to be presented in the form of a statutory instrument, why is it in the form of a negative instrument and not the affirmative resolution procedure? The affirmative resolution procedure would have given us time to consider the matter and discuss it. Yet, in order to do that, we have to have this curious procedure. Proposals of this nature ought to be presented in a proper manner and properly scrutinised. As I say, the measure should have been presented in the form of a Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that there is a connection between BSE and CJD. I am bound to say that I agree with the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in this regard. The scientists to whom I have spoken assure me that although the organisms which cause CJD may be similar to that which causes BSE, there is no known proven method of transfer between animals and humans. It is important to remember that as otherwise people become alarmed, possibly unnecessarily.

One comes back to the statutory instrument. One wonders why it was introduced in such a hurry. It was laid before the House on 27th March, the day before Maundy Thursday. It came into effect one week after Parliament returned after the Easter Recess. One wonders why this has been done so hastily. I do not think that that is the right way to do it. The measure should have been presented in the form of a Bill.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that it is a terrible thing to be presented with regulations entitled TSE (England) Regulations. I do not know whether your Lordships know what the letters "TSE" stand for but the majority of people do not. I did not know what TSE was; I knew what BSE was. I asked a knowledgeable Member of your Lordships' House whether he knew what TSE was. He replied that he did not. Someone in the Printed Paper Office put us out of our misery in that regard. I remember, when I was in the Ministry of Agriculture, reading a brief that referred to the BSC. I thought that it referred to the British Sugar Corporation but in fact it referred to the

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British Steel Corporation. Having read the brief, I had to re-read it because the change in meaning gave it a completely different sense and referred to a different part of life.

I ask the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—if I can have his attention for a moment—to do what I used to do; that is, to circle acronyms such as "TSE". Doing so meant that the people would write it out in full and everyone would understand what one was talking about. One does not understand what one is talking about when one talks about "TSE" because it is easy to muddle that up with TSB, which is, of course, a bank.

I do not like the regulations, for various reasons. I shall not go into great detail, other than to say that they give huge powers to inspectors. Inspectors can enter premises when they like and they have the right to destroy any animal, including, as the noble Countess said, horses, fish and cats. There is a difference between whether an animal is suspected of having a TSE and whether it is susceptible to it. As the noble Countess also said, inspectors can take records and everything else from a computer, including one's bank balance and even a list of one's lady friends, if one keeps such things on one's computer. Those are huge powers but there is no right of appeal, which is wrong.

I shall not detain the House further by listing my other objections. However, the proposal should have been in a Bill. The Government should not try to railroad ideas through Parliament without giving it the opportunity for discussion.

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