House of Lords
Thursday, 16th May 2002.
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Rochester): The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Audio-books: VAT
Baroness Rendell of Babergh: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I declare an interest as an author of books on tape.
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Whether they will consider removing the VAT on audio-books on the grounds that these are extensively used by the visually impaired.
Baroness Rendell of Babergh: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. However, does he agree that, when VAT was introduced in 1973, the audio industry was virtually non-existent? Does he also agree that if the Treasury were rewriting rules now, it might take a different view?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, there are certain dangers in the Treasury rewriting the rules. We benefit very substantially from the fact that, when Annex H to the Sixth Directive was introduced in 1992, we already had zero rating not only on books and newspapers, in particular, but also on children's clothes, food and public transport fares. We were able to continue that because we already had the exemption. If we were to start re-opening the Pandora's box of zero rating, we could put that at risk. Much as I sympathise with what the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, says about audio-books, I think that on the whole we would prefer not to do that.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that audio-books have been of great help to blind people, especially when the voices have been recorded by actors and actresses, and that they are available for lending from public libraries?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I entirely agree that audio-books are a great help to blind people. The Royal National Institute for the Blind, after all, has a scheme of talking books for the blind to which it has about 43,000 subscribers. That equipment and that provision is zero rated. Zero rating, however, must be for equipment specifically designed for people
with disabilities, and we take advantage of that exemption. However, audio-books are also of very great interest to others who are not visually impaired.
Lord Peston: My Lords, surely the anomaly here, to introduce a discordant note, is the fact that not only books, but magazines, periodicals and pornographic literature—if I may remind my noble friend of the existence of such things; I know because I know the law, not because I have ever seen such things—are zero rated? Is it not strange that we refer to that zero rating as a benefit when the essential point is that VAT really should be levelled on everything? Is it not about time that instead of talking about this benefit, we got rid of the anomaly entirely?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am always prepared to take instruction from my noble friend Lord Peston. However, I disagree. The zero rating which we have for children's clothes, food, books and newspapers, and public transport fares is a very considerable advantage to us. It is indeed in the Labour manifesto that we shall continue to maintain that zero rating.
Lord Renton: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that audio-books are also a great help to those who are deaf? That is a further reason for liberating them.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Renton, says, and I suppose that audio-books could be played very loud. Audio-books are a great pleasure to a very large number of people, including me. I just wish that the readers would read rather faster than they do.
Lord Addington: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that, by taxing audio-books, we are basically just attacking another form of literature? As literature is said to be a good thing, why are audio-books not treated as such?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I have been trying to explain that these anomalies have occurred because of the Sixth Directive, and particularly because of Annex H to that directive. There are changes that we might like to make if the lid were taken off this Pandora's box. However, we are, rightly, very nervous about doing that because of the advantages that we gain. I would not argue for significant changes for that very reason.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, will the Minister be kind enough to advise us how many people in the United Kingdom and the EU are visually impaired? If by any chance the numbers are significant, would he please arrange to change the directive?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I do not know how many, but clearly it is a very significant
number. However, I do not see why that should justify a change in the directive. The directive is very significantly to our advantage.
Lord Saatchi: My Lords, if the Pandora's box can never be opened, can the Minister say why, in another place, the Paymaster General said that no accurate estimate is available of the cost to the Exchequer of zero rating audio-books? Why is there no such estimate? May we have one?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I imagine that there is not one because useful sales figures for audio-books are not available. I do not know the answer to the question, but I do not think that the cost of zero rating audio-books has been a significant factor in our consideration of the issue raised by this Question.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, given the difficulties outlined and the importance of audio-books to patients recovering from severe injury who are unable to hold conventional books or who have brain tumours and difficulty focusing on a page although they are not classified as visually impaired, do the Government have any intention of trying to provide some financial relief for families faced with caring for those with a severe disability for whom audio-books are a major source of comfort?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, as I have made clear, the Government maintain zero rating of VAT for all sorts of equipment and material specifically designed for those with a wide range of disabilities and not just for those with visual impairment. The difficulty with some of these issues, and particularly with audio-books, is that although they are indeed of great help to people with various disabilities, they are also a source of great pleasure to people without disabilities. To introduce a zero rating, even if we could, would be to introduce a further anomaly into the zero-rating system.
Lord Swinfen: My Lords, the noble Lord said that children's books were zero rated. Are audio-books for children zero rated?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I did not say anything about children's books; I said children's clothes. There is no connection between the two.
Travel Documents
3.8 p.m.
Lord Selsdon asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What documentation is acceptable as proof of identity to permit British subjects to travel without let or hindrance within the European Union.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Rooker): My Lords, a British passport is the only official
document issued in the United Kingdom which establishes both the holder's identity and nationality for travel purposes within the European Union, or anywhere else for that matter.
Lord Selsdon: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his gracious reply, and not wishing to correct him in any way, perhaps I may remind him that, on the back of our parliamentary passes, it states,
- "THIS PASS IS AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT".
Will the Minister therefore give consideration to obtaining authorisation for noble Lords to travel without let or hindrance throughout the EU as we have a pass which states that it is an official document? Further, can he tell me why it is necessary for British subjects abroad sometimes to present their passport at least five times before arriving at an airport and clearing Customs in the United Kingdom?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I think that that is a preposterous suggestion because the photo-identity pass does not identify the person concerned. It might state that it is an official document, and the notice to turn it in to a police station if lost is helpful, but what on earth does that really tell anyone? I therefore find it difficult to take the suggestion seriously.
As for the serious part of the noble Lord's Question, various nationality and identity issues need to be addressed. Although the barriers are more or less down in a common area, even airlines, for their own security, like passengers to show a photo-pass. That may not be a requirement but they like to know who is on the plane, for various reasons. As far as the United Kingdom is concerned, the only document that covers both nationality and identity is the passport. That rules out such documents as the photo driving licence, for example.
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