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Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. He will be aware of the exception to his rule; namely, Captain Spicer, who said that he was completely ignorant of the international embargo on arms sales to Sierra Leone when he proposed to supply weapons to that country.
Lord Razzall: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his intervention. As regards the provision of arms, let us take the example of Captain Spicer's successor. I understand that under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act the Government propose to introduce full extra-territoriality on corruption offences. It is common ground on all sides of the House that the provision on corruption offences will apply to a UK citizen whether that person is resident inside or outside the United Kingdom.
In arms dealing very heavy commissions are often paid which, by most definitions, constitute corruption. So if Her Majesty's Government are not prepared to move on this issue, we shall have a situation whereby a UK citizen living and working for a company in Australia or in the United States will not be caught by any restrictions on brokering arms under the Export Control Bill; however, under the corruption provisions, he will be expected to know that he cannot engage in the practices in which he normally engages in selling arms to the third world. Is not that a foolish position for the Government to get themselves into?
Lord Judd: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, is to be congratulated on persisting with this amendment. It is crucial to the credibility of everything that we are trying to do.
There are other arguments besides those that have already been deployed. The Government have argued, for example, that it is difficult to justify drawing a distinction between small arms and light weapons on the one hand, and other weapons on the other. However, there are clear classifications on what constitutes small arms. For example, the "Joint Action on the European Union's contribution to combating the destabilising accumulation and spread of small arms and light weapons" of December 1998 treats small arms and light weapons as a special case, and its annex contains a list of items which are to be regarded as falling within this category. In addition, the fact that there has been a United Nations international conference on small arms and a UN firearms protocol surely more than adequately indicates the international importance given to them as an identifiable category and a special case.
I want to say something slightly difficult to my noble friend the Minister, whom I greatly respect. Inevitably, the longer the Government oppose this measure, the greater is the speculation as to what is really behind
such opposition. Some are already asking whether it could be that there is a convenient loophole here for governments. Perhaps it is envisaged, for example, that activity of a UK offshore broker might on some occasion be of help to government. There is a considerable grey area when considering the activity of brokers in conflict zones. Brokers can indeed be a temptation to governments. I think, for example, of the recent official report by the Dutch Government on the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, which was published last month. According to the evidence from the Netherlands, US intelligence agencies secretly broke a UN arms embargo during the 1991-95 war in the former Yugoslavia by channelling arms through Islamic Jihad groups which Washington is now hunting down across Europe and Asia.I am not implying that the UK Government are in any way involved in such activities, but if the Government do not control British dealers overseas, cynics will inevitably ask whether this is a loophole of convenience and just how far the Government in reality want to regulate all such activities. Does my noble friend not see how that doubt can arise? Or could such a loophole be left to be unscrupulously exploited at some future date by Ministers not as honourable as my noble friend the Minister on the Front Bench?
As the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said, she is a good friend, but a stern critic. I have to say to my noble friend the Minister, and I hope that the noble Baroness is listening, that I believe that the amendment is central to the credibility and purposes of the Bill. If the Government insist on resisting the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, and if he decides to divide the House, I shall not be able to support the Government in their opposition to his amendment.
4.15 p.m.
The Earl of Sandwich: My Lords, I want to reassure the Minister that the Government are not alone on the question of arms control, in case they are feeling isolated. There are humanitarian agencies all over the world whose members work on this issue every day. I can give examples to illustrate that in some parts of Africa—for example, in Ethiopia, where World Vision has conducted a valuable survey on the impact of small arms—the gun culture is being successfully confronted by NGOs, which are often working alongside government in conflict resolution and development programmes. So the NGOs are engaged, and accordingly expect corresponding advances at international level.
I take a slightly different approach to the amendment from that of my noble friend. I feel confident that the Government are moving steadily towards the extra-territorial control of small arms brokers and trafficking as stated in the 2001 manifesto. We, on behalf of many specialised organisations and concerned individuals welcome that. We should encourage, not criticise, Ministers who represent the Government and who therefore understandably have to move one step at a time.
I have re-read the Minister's response on Report. It is arguable that he was, in fact, accepting the amendment and not rejecting it. He said:
- "as I explained, the Bill would not preclude the introduction of controls along the lines of those proposed in the amendment. It would permit the Government to introduce extra-territorial controls on trafficking and brokering in small arms and light weapons should we consider that appropriate in the light of significant new developments—such as, for example, reaching international agreement to apply trade controls extra-territorially or to ban certain exports".—[Official Report, 18/4/02; col. 1145.]
I must press the Minister again on the point on which I intervened then. Surely, if the Government are so close to recommending an extension of controls within an international agreement, it would be logical to reflect such an extension in this Bill. That would demonstrate renewed commitment to the manifesto and would be wholly consistent with the earlier response to public consultation on the White Paper, which was very favourable. It would also give a lead to the international community in line with its already prominent role in the UN programme of action and the new EU common position.
It is worth quoting the remarks of the former Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, on 27th July 1997, when the Government took unilateral action on torture equipment. He said:
- "We have considered with our European partners how they might align themselves with this policy. While there is broad support for the idea of controlling equipment which evidence shows may be used in torture . . . not all our partners control the export of the same equipment".
I noted that the Minister made no comment on the precedents which were offered last time by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and others for extra-territorial controls in the areas of anti-terrorism, corruption, drugs, chemical weapons, sexual offences and landmines. The list is very long now.
Understandably, the Minister said that he was concerned about practicalities as well as about moral imperatives. However, on the question of enforcement, as controls will have to be in place for long-range missiles and torture equipment, we are talking of an extension of controls already in place. There is no need for a new definition of brokering, for example, or trafficking. In many countries, controls will already be in place. Taking the Minister's Australian example, if domestic jurisdiction is satisfactory, there may be no need for any further licensing.
Surely the Minister will agree that, difficult as enforcement will always be, in those other cases of corruption and so on, it was decided that practical difficulties should not stand in the way of legislation, so that UK traffickers and brokers, wherever they are,
should know exactly where they stand. I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, who has left the Chamber, that she has also spoken of residence in the UK, which would be another extension of this amendment. In time, we shall be able to persuade our EU and other partners, some of whom are ahead of us in this, that legislation is as important as co-operation.In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will agree that this amendment merely continues a process that the Government have already accepted.
The Lord Bishop of Birmingham: My Lords, in supporting this amendment, I know that I speak for my colleagues on this Bench, notably for my brother the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, who is sitting beside me. I thought that he would be talking today and not me.
The arguments I wish to make have already been advanced and I shall not repeat them except to underline two points. First, the precedent for extra-territorial jurisdiction in pressing matters like this already exists. Secondly, I emphasise the humanitarian point: the terrible consequences of traffic in small arms and light weapons, particularly in Africa; and the cost not only to those populations but to other parts of the world, including this country. The oncosts of the use of small arms in civil conflicts is truly terrible and wasteful of every type of human resource. Every step should be taken to work effectively against it.
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