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Lord Avebury: My Lords, I was not trying to undermine the argument of my noble friend Lord Razzall when I intervened in his remarks to point out that the case of Colonel Spicer—whom I inadvertently demoted to captain—provides an example of someone operating from the United Kingdom who set up a deal to procure weapons overseas and supply them to a third country. Colonel Spicer went to Vancouver, where he met a Thai businessman, and he arranged for the shipment of 10 million dollars-worth of light weapons to Sierra Leone in contravention of a UN embargo. Some noble Lords will remember that that led to inquiries by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs in another place, to the commissioning of an inquiry by a distinguished High Court judge, and to the Government's getting a lot of egg on their face for allowing it to happen.
I also wanted to underline the fact that such transactions can readily be undertaken even now. I wonder whether the Minister watches the Mark Thomas show on television. I gather that he does not. I happened to attend a recent recording of the show, at the Bedford Arms, in south London, and I should like to describe what Mr Thomas put over in the hour that we were with him. He set up a dummy company with a fax machine, an e-mail address and a letterhead and he sought quotations from a subsidiary of BAE—Heckler & Koch, from Switzerland—to supply light arms to Zimbabwe and Algeria. He showed that it was quite easy to get the company to commit itself to one of those transactions. In the other case, however, the company suggested that it might be better if the dummy company went to Finland, where the company's associates might be able to fill the order.
So Mr Thomas talked to the people in Finland and found that there was no problem at all in acquiring the weapons either in Finland or in Switzerland to sell to these sensitive destinations—Zimbabwe, where there is an embargo, and Algeria, where there is a very high casualty rate in extra-judicial executions, as the Minister is undoubtedly aware. The point is that Mr Thomas did that with absolutely no resources at all. If someone like that—who, as he himself confessed, knows nothing about the arms trade—can enter into such a venture for the first time and have no difficulty procuring weapons for transfer to such sensitive destinations, then surely we do need legislation like this.
It is clear from examples that have been given that people have genuinely engaged in such transactions. As the pages of Africa Confidential reveal, people like John Bredenkamp do procure weapons from a secure base in the home counties for transfer to countries in Africa where they are used to kill people. As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I think, has already remarked, light weapons kill a great many more people in Africa than do the heavier weapons that occupy so much of our attention. I therefore beg the Minister to take this amendment seriously. I hope that noble Lords will pass it. If we do not, there will be a very severe gap in the Bill which we shall live to regret.
Lord Brennan: My Lords, I should like to identify a fact that dictates the course of this amendment to this clause. The fact is that, every year, 5 million people, including 2 million children, are killed by small arms. Bullets kill many more people than do bombs. That destruction, coupled with the incalculable numbers who are injured by firearms, should require any international legislature to consider its powers to prevent such carnage. Four considerations therefore arise if, acting as a civilised legislature, we wish to deal with such a problem. The first is that, surely in the United Kingdom, the unlawful brokering of small arms which creates such death should be forbidden. Whether the citizen of our country who is doing it is resident here or abroad, the morality is the same, whatever the geography.
Secondly, I said that dealing should be dealt with by a legislature if it was unlawful. As I understand it, Amendment No. 4 embraces a licensing system that someone living abroad could take advantage of just as he might if he were brokering in this country. The third consideration is that a person dealing in arms is doing so for profit. It is usually a consequence of business life that one learns the law that dictates how one can make that profit. The idea that a foreign resident UK broker cannot be proceeded against because he might not know the law borders on the absurd. The fourth consideration is extra-territoriality, which is a difficult problem. I acknowledge the problem, as evidenced in the remarks at Report stage of my noble friend the Minister. However, which is better—no action at all to meet a problem, or some action that involves difficulty? A civilised country would surely choose the latter.
Those four considerations to try to overcome that fact found Amendment No. 4. We on these Benches historically have taken a firm stance against illegal brokering in arms. I propose to maintain that stance.
It appears from what the Minister said on Report that there is a solution to this problem for our national legislature, which the Government foresee. I shall identify it and invite my noble friend the Minister to confirm it. Under Clause 6 of this Bill, there are general restrictions on control powers. In other words, the Government cannot control exports unless the provisions of Clause 6 are met. The principal provision of Clause 6 is that the powers can be exercised so as to permit this country to give effect to a provision of European Community law or to an international obligation. In other words, if Europe takes concerted action against the brokering of small arms, so may we. If the international community takes a similar course, we will join it. That solution is not a perfect one.
However, I invite the Minister to confirm that this clause, which refers to a schedule to the Bill that plainly involves controlling the brokering of small arms, will be vigilantly considered by the Government, and that in Europe they will pursue European action for the kind of control that the clause envisages, as I am sure they will do internationally.
My noble friend the Minister has a great intellectual capacity to speak clearly when the occasion requires it and not to retreat into the sometimes obscure verbiage of a Ministerial brief.
We on these Benches look forward to a clear, unmistakable commitment that, by the solution I have identified or others, the United Kingdom will through this legislature control arms brokering by any of our citizens anywhere, which is unlawful and contributes to the carnage that I have identified.
4.30 p.m.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, at Report stage the Minister said that France, Germany, Belgium and Holland either had or were in the process of introducing legislation to control arms brokers. The arguments behind this amendment have been well rehearsed. However, it is unfortunate that this country is not taking a lead in introducing legislation in this field, but will be following and waiting for others to take the initiative.
As the right reverend Prelate and many noble Lords have pointed out, there is a moral argument for supporting this amendment. On hearing that an arms control Bill is being considered, many in this country would believe that this provision is essential to such a Bill becoming law.
If the Government do not accept it, I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, will press this amendment, and we on these Benches will support him.
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I begin by assuring noble Lords that there is no other reason for our approach to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, than that we believe it to be
impractical. We are not looking to brokers to help us in some situations. We simply believe that the amendment is impractical.Since the last debate, we have looked at the American situation. The American laws on extra-territorial brokering have been quoted a number of times. It is significant that not one prosecution has been mounted under US brokering law. That clearly confirms our feeling about the impracticality of this amendment, and I shall return to that point.
We greatly sympathise with the aims behind this amendment. However, we do not believe that it is a practical course of action; nor do we believe that it enhances our moral standing on this issue to pass a piece of legislation which cannot be practically enforced.
I turn to the question of ignorance of the law. Of course, subject to the Human Rights Act, ignorance is not a defence in UK law. That is why we use extra-territoriality very sparingly and only in areas subject to international condemnation, where any reasonable person should know that what he or she is doing is wrong.
The noble Lord, Lord Razzall, suggested that, unlike the anti-terrorism Act and the corruption measures under it, the Export Control Bill will not apply at all to a UK citizen in, for example, the United States or Australia. That is not correct. Under this Bill, a UK citizen living abroad will, under the dummy orders, be subject to controls if he trades in arms to any embargoed destination or trades in torture equipment or certain missiles.
I can tell the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, that there is no international agreement in prospect either to ban trade in small arms or light weapons or to apply trafficking and brokering extra-territorially. For example, the dummy orders are fully consistent with the EU agreement referred to, and all the other examples that have been cited on bribery or corruption extra-territorially are associated with international agreements.
The noble Lord was quite right to assume that I do not watch the Mark Thomas programmes. However, having children who watch it, my attention is always drawn to occasions on which the Government are embarrassed by Mark Thomas, so I am aware of this particular incident. Of course, the point here is that had Mark Thomas been a real arms dealer or had the Bill been in force, as we understand it he would have committed an offence by what he did because, first, he was in the UK and, secondly, Zimbabwe is an embargoed destination. So it is perhaps as well that it was a television programme and not the real thing in this case.
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