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Lord Judd: My Lords, the whole House should be grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours. He referred to the fact that the Early-Day Motion in the other place had attracted the signatures of a large number of Ministers. I hope that I am allowed to make a personal reference. My own experience, both as a Minister of State at the Foreign Office and as an Under-Secretary of State at the Ministry of Defence, albeit some time ago, leads me to see the importance and pertinence of this proposal.

It is far from self-evident why we can trust a committee of parliamentarians to scrutinise the intelligence services but cannot trust one to examine export licence applications. As my noble friend made clear, the cross-party Quadripartite Committee in the other place put forward a series of detailed proposals on how such a system could work. However, as he also made clear, so far the Government have objected to those, primarily on the grounds of constitutional impropriety, and on the grounds that the proposals would confuse the roles of Parliament and the Executive; damage commercial confidentiality; delay the licensing process and damage commercial competitiveness. The QSC has responded to those concerns comprehensively. Like many others, I can only come to the conclusion that the main obstacle is obviously a lack of political will.

The amendment provides an opportunity to show that that is not the case because the wording of the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours could not be said to endanger any of the concerns I have just mentioned. It addresses the constitutional issues raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, and the Government by taking the precedent established by the Intelligence and Security Committee and using it as a template. Although the defence export services committee as proposed would not go quite as far as the recommendations of the QSC—I favour the most transparent system possible—the amendment is at least an important step towards effective prior oversight by parliamentarians of arms export licence applications and, therefore, is surely to be welcomed.

As my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours explained, it is essential to emphasise that it will be imperative to ensure that if the committee is established, it will work in parallel with the QSC and in no way as a substitute for it. The functions of the two committees will remain different and both roles are required. The defence export scrutiny committee will be a committee of parliamentarians which will provide advice to and raise concerns with the Prime Minister on specific licence applications before decisions are made.

The Quadripartite Select Committee will still perform the indispensable broader role of a full-blooded parliamentary committee in scrutinising government decisions; reviewing the annual reports of

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strategic exports; taking evidence in public and making recommendations for changes in policy and law. The QSC is about parliamentary scrutiny. That key role will remain as important as it has obviously become.

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, in opposing the amendment I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for the energy and work which has gone into its drafting and into its much longer earlier form, and for his dogged persistence in pursuing the subject throughout the passage of the Bill.

However—I intend no disrespect to the noble Lord—I believe that the whole concept of the amendment is misconceived. No doubt the Minister will tell us when he replies how many hundreds of applications for export licences are received every year. It must be a pretty vast number judging by the high percentage that cannot be processed within the target time. There is an overwhelming volume of work for the large number of civil servants within the Department of Trade and Industry which cannot be adequately reviewed by a committee of nine. Perhaps when he replies the Minister can tell us how many staff in his department are engaged in that activity apart from staff at the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and many other government departments which are involved in this licensing process.

There is then the problem of commercial and scientific confidentiality. It cannot be regarded as feasible that highly sensitive matters, such as those currently covered by export control, can be exposed to the scrutiny of a nominated Joint Committee of both Houses. Whether or not it is intended by the noble Lord—I am sure that it is not—the amendments could have the effect of introducing an element of political control early on; of imposing, perhaps, the political views of the members of the intended scrutiny committee on to the commercial and scientific applicants for licences, and the policy of the Government in granting or refusing them.

Such views have no place in the licensing procedure, in which the sole criterion of the Act and its 63 year-old predecessor is to guard against the "relevant consequences" set out in the schedule to the Bill; namely, as I remind your Lordships, to guard against adverse effects for the national security of the United Kingdom, its Armed Forces, and any other friendly state; adverse effects on peace, security and stability in any region of the world; the carrying out of acts facilitating production of weapons of mass destruction; and terrorism, crime and breaches of human rights.

In case noble Lords think that the idea that it could have some kind of political control is a fanciful fear, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, mentioned today the Early-Day Motion, in which several senior government Back-Benchers are seeking to set up the committee, not merely to oversee the licensing of arms export systems in the vague way that the amendment proposes but to approve or disapprove in advance the

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grant of all arms export licences. The sort of wedge of which the amendment could be the thin end is clear to see.

It would be intolerable to have a nine-person appointed committee of placemen which could take over the whole of the foreign policy and defence of this country, even in disregard of our international obligations. The Government are already subject to oversight under the normal parliamentary process.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours said that the Minister stated on Report that he regarded the amendment as an enabling one. I do not think it is. It states that,

"(1) There shall be a Committee . . .

(2) The Committee shall consist of . . .

(3) The members of the Committee shall be appointed by the Prime Minister",

and so forth. That does not make it an enabling clause.

The Minister pointed out in the last debate that if it was felt that an oversight committee was desirable, the Government could appoint one without the sanction of this legislation. I feel sure that if it were proved to be necessary, the Government would do so.

However well meaning the amendments may be—I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, intends them to be—they are not practical, reasonable or even necessary. I imagine that they will continue to be opposed by the Government. Assuming that they are, I would find myself in the unusual position of supporting the Government. However, I am worried about saying that. As I said to the Minister in debates on the Employment Bill, whenever I supported an amendment tabled by one of his Back-Benchers, it was thrown out; and the ones that I opposed, the Minister accepted. Therefore, I do not know whether or not this is helpful.

I hope that the Minister will be able to persuade his noble friend to withdraw the amendment. The nature of the applications is so varied and the subjects so complex that I doubt whether nine polymaths could be found to qualify as the nine wise all-knowing persons that the noble Lord suggests the Prime Minister should appoint to the scrutiny committee, even with the benefit of consultation with the Leader of the Opposition.

Lord Rea: My Lords, I have a rather different view from that of the noble Baroness. I have listened to my noble friends Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Judd and have been impressed by the logical and detailed arguments they have used in supporting the amendment; not only that: they have pointed out that since Report stage, public and political opinion has changed in favour of having this committee.

I very much look forward to the reply by the Minister, since the committee proposed by the amendment appears to be both necessary and desirable. I thought that my noble friend covered the arguments against it in detail. However, I shall cover two points raised by the noble Baroness. She mentioned the large number of applications for licences. It is not proposed that the nine members of

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the committee will personally go through every single application. There will be a unit answering to it who will be given instructions to filter out those which look sensitive and need a decision by the committee.

With regard to the question of whether or not the committee will tread on sensitive toes and may infringe confidential matters, we have the example—as pointed out by my noble friend—of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Its members are sworn to secrecy and confidentially. There has been no case in which they have breached that trust.

5.30 p.m.

Lord Redesdale: My Lords, we, on these Benches, support the aims of the amendment. It is highly unlikely that the Government will accept it at this late stage. However, I am sure that the issue will be raised on many occasions in another place, especially by the Quadripartite Committee. I think that it is an issue to which this House will return at some stage.

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