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Earl Attlee: My Lords, is it also true that as a percentage of GNP it has fallen from 2.8 to 2.4 per cent?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, that is of course because we are improving GNP, or GDP, which I am happy to acknowledge. The fact is that in real terms the Armed Forces have more to spend than they used to have. The point which the noble Earl was trying to make is that spending more is not enough. EU member states need to spend more on the right things; for example, more on equipment and less on conscript forces.
Moreover, we need to spend smarter, to use the jargonistic phrase. But we are doing that. We are spending more on equipment; for example, in two key capability target areas we have increased our spending. We have increased it in response to the airlift capacity, which has increased by some 60 per cent since the Strategic Defence Review, and we are buying four further roll-on roll-off ships to increase our heavy sea-lift capacity by around 2,000 per cent.
However, defence spending does not always deliver quick results. My noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall was right in saying that making defence spending go further is always a slow process. Even in the United States it is a slow process. Many noble Lords have pointed out that the United States is increasing its defence expenditure. Thus the defence budget will increase, but not necessarily in the sense of providing additional resources.
Of course we have had to make some difficult choices about how we spend the available money. Now other EU member states are also looking at the way in which they are utilising their finances. Defence reviews under way in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden and Finland are recommending more deployable, mobile and flexible forces. Italian and Greek reviews are also in progress. France and Spain will have completely professional armed forces by the end of this
year. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, reminded us that that will be the case in Germany. In addition, Italy, Greece and Portugal are reducing the number of conscripts in relation to their professional personnel. The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg have already completed the professional aspect of their armed forces.My noble friend Lord Williams of Elvel was quite right to point out that we in Europe have a difficult hand to play. But to use my noble friend's analogy a little further, the question we have to ask is this: what can we do to improve the quality of our cards and to play our hand more effectively? We are not the only country looking at this aspect. EU nations are examining new ways of using their existing resources far more effectively, pooling and improving the interoperability of our forces and equipment. We believe that that will achieve economies of scale. I agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend Lord Williams, and, indeed, with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Inge, on the importance of interoperability. For example, Germany and the Netherlands have announced that they will collaborate to provide some existing German aircraft with air-to-air refuelling capability. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Inge, made clear, it is a difficult task to achieve, but it is one to which we must dedicate a great deal of time and thought.
We look also to collaborative procurement initiatives, which we have seen taken forward in OCCAR. I agree with many noble Lords who have wondered whether OCCAR is going to be truly effective, but better procurement and cutting down duplication, time and costs are absolutely vital, a point stressed by my noble friend Lord Harrison. Although OCCAR is still in its early days, it does provide us with a means of moving forward on those important procurement issues.
I turn now to whether the ESDP is really now up and running. There have been some improvements in capability, but are those improvements adequate to allow the ESDP to claim that it is now operational? I think that the answer to the question is a qualified "yes", but within clear limits. The EU has recognised that capability shortfalls will have an impact on what the ESDP can do in the short term.
The noble Lord, Lord Blaker, raised the question of consultation and when action on humanitarian issues would be appropriate. In December 2001 at Laeken, the EU declared that, through the continuing development of the ESDP and the strengthening of its capabilities, both civil and military, and the creation of the appropriate EU structures, the EU is now able to conduct some crisis management operations. However, at this initial stage of the development of the ESDP, the European Council at Laeken also made it clear that the Union will be in a position to take on progressively more demanding operations as the assets and capabilities at its disposal continue to develop. If the noble Lord were to ask me whether that was the only forum within which these issues are being addressed, I would say of course it is not. They are also being addressed in NATO and the UN.
I wish to address an issue on which many noble Lords concentrated; that is, the relationship between the ESDP and NATO. The relationship with NATO is absolutely crucial. That point was raised by almost all noble Lords who participated in our debate. All pointed out that the links between NATO and the EU are integral to ensuring that the EU does not duplicate NATO planning structures and that rivalry does not ensue.
Noble Lords will have heard on many occasions Ministers come to the Dispatch Box and make the point, but I shall make it again this evening. The ESDP is designed to complement NATO; NATO will remain the cornerstone of our territorial and defence security. I listened carefully to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, but I genuinely do not believe that we shall have to choose between NATO and the ESDP. The whole point is that they should be complementary. However, I do agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. The relationship must not be taken for granted. It needs to be fostered and constantly reinforced and I believe that working relationships between the MoD and the Pentagon do exactly that. NATO will also continue to have a role in crisis management, but ESDP will offer the international community a further option and will act when NATO as whole is not engaged.
A number of noble Lords mentioned the meeting of NATO Foreign Ministers in Reykjavik last week. NATO remains alive to the same issues as ESDP. I agree with my noble friend Lord Williams that we saw a number of UK objectives met in three key areas—NATO-Russia relations, NATO enlargement and reform of NATO. Like my noble friend Lord Harrison, the Government very strongly support the plans of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, for a modernised NATO, with improved command, force and headquarters structures. This will be essential if an enlarged NATO is to continue to be an effective military alliance.
Equally, NATO will benefit from ESDP. Nations have one set of forces, and improvements in national capability can and must benefit both the ESDP and NATO.
My noble friends Lord Judd and Lord Williams referred to the NATO-Russia council. The points which were agreed in Reykjavik on 14th May were very important. Given the shortage of time, perhaps I may write to my noble friends on the important points that were made about the future of the relationship and place a copy of my letter in the Library.
Let me now say something about the EU-NATO links, the Berlin Plus and the whole axis of arguments about what is happening between Turkey and Greece at the moment. Of course there are complex angles to the EU-NATO relationship. It is not a straightforward issue, as many noble Lords pointed out. At the Barcelona European Council, the EU Heads of Government and State announced that the EU would be available to take over the NATO mission in the former Republic of Macedonia. But two conditions were applied: first, that such a force would be needed;
and, secondly and crucially, that the EU-NATO links would have to be in place. That was a vital condition in relation to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, and, to a lesser extent, by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. I stress that that was a crucial point in the conditionality placed on that issue.As the House will know, EU-NATO links—or Berlin Plus in shorthand—are necessary to give the EU assured access to NATO planning and presumed access to NATO's assets and capabilities. Without these, the ESDP will not be able to take on the more demanding crisis-management operations.
The Government share your Lordships' concerns over the difficulties that we have faced in securing the Berlin Plus arrangements referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, but commitment to Berlin Plus in both the EU and NATO remains overwhelming. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, concentrated most of his remarks on this point, but I can say to him that we remain confident that both organisations will be able to meet the concerns of Turkey and Greece to their mutual satisfaction. The United Kingdom will certainly be working hard with the Governments of both countries to try to help them to resolve their differences. I hope that gives some assurance to the noble Lord.
A number of points were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Moynihan and Lord Owen, on the question of the command and control of EU crisis-management operations. We must remember that we are talking here about Petersberg tasks. They are not—I repeat not—issues surrounding Article 5 of NATO. At the top level the picture is clear. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, is right: the EU Council has political control, delegated when appropriate to the Political and Security Committee. The EU crisis-management exercise in 2003 will help to clarify the way in which the Committee of Contributing Nations will interact with the Political and Security Committee to run an operation.
The argument in relation to this issue is: what happens at operational level? At that level, the command and control takes two forms. Because the EU does not have its own operational command structure, it can use either NATO, in the form of SHAPE, or it can use an EU nation's own structures. In short, either the EU will ask NATO to plan and command an operation or it will ask a framework nation, such as the United Kingdom, to use its operational headquarters to do so. I say to both noble Lords that there is no decision to create an independent military operational planning capability. Either NATO is used, or one of the countries involved in the operation. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford—we have discussed this matter many times previously—that European capability kicks in only when NATO as a whole is not engaged.
The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Inge, raised questions on monitoring and training which ought to be touched upon. He has particular expertise given his history in this area. It has been agreed that in the earliest stages of EU force development the training of
troops would be conducted by nations and by NATO. We fully anticipate that in due course NATO will want to adapt its major exercises to enable EU nations to work to prove headline goal interoperability. I hope that that is of some comfort to the noble and gallant Lord.Finally, perhaps I may address the points about how ESDP might be held to account to supra-national legislatures—a point on which the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, concentrated a large part of his remarks. Nations are individually responsible for decisions about the deployment of national military personnel and assets. It is right, therefore, that the principal form of parliamentary accountability should remain with national parliaments. We believe that this is the right course in fulfilling the commitment to accountability, and it is important to consider how this is then taken forward into the future.
As I am sure the noble Lord is well aware, the question will be dealt with under the convention on the future of Europe and its subsequent intergovernmental conference in 2004. It would be premature to speculate on the outcome of that. I strongly agree with the remark by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, that to take such a decision now would indeed be premature. I am sure that many noble Lords believe that it could possibly pre-empt the decisions that are being taken at the moment on the future of Europe.
In the mean time, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, and other noble Lords who raised the point, that the European Parliament, the WEU Assembly and other relevant bodies will continue to fulfil their current functions.
I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, about the points that he raised on Canada. I thought that he was entirely wrong. It has not been left out, but perhaps I may write to him on the point.
In conclusion, I have listened carefully to what has been a wide-ranging and, as so often on this subject, an enormously well-informed debate. I am very grateful to your Lordships for the comments and suggestions that you have made. I believe that the Government will want to take much of this on board as the ESDP develops. What is clear, however, from the debate is that the ESDP is a necessary tool as part of the foreign policy apparatus of the United Kingdom within the EU and a much-needed tool within the international community when we turn to crisis management.
The Government thank the committee for its report and commend it to the House.
10.23 p.m.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, a few moments ago, my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, sent me a note which said:
- "The debate has been interesting enough for you to make a full wind-up".
All members of the committee will be grateful for the generally warm welcome that our report has received. I have heard no serious criticism. I want to refer to only one query, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall. He said that he felt that there was some incompatibility between paragraphs 39 and 90. Frankly, I am not able to recognise that incompatibility. Paragraph 39 says that the European Union must do more and must do it better, because the United States may not always be involved in various tasks. Paragraph 90 says that on some occasions ESDP may well need United States political and perhaps practical support, whether through advice or intelligence back-up—that is relevant remembering the Falklands campaign—or on contingency planning in the event of an operation going through a degree of escalation or serious extension of the crisis that is being dealt with. I am afraid that I therefore do not recognise the incompatibility referred to by the noble Lord, but maybe we can discuss that on another occasion.
I have detected wide support in the debate for the conclusions of the report. My old friend the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said at the end of his remarks that he felt that the House would return to the issue. I believe that the committee and the House most certainly will return to it from time to time.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at twenty-seven minutes past ten o'clock.
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