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Lord Elton: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I understood him to say that his committee got in touch with the Leader of another place and stated that the new arrangements would have to be in place by the beginning of the next Session. If I understood
him correctly, will he tell the House when that letter was written and why it was thought that arrangements had to be in place by then?
Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord has intervened. Perhaps I may clarify what I said. The letter written to the Leader of the House of Commons was dated 14th May. It refers, among other matters, to the decision—potentially by this House today—in our report that the matters relating to statutory instruments will possibly be in place by the beginning of the next Session. That was the point to which I referred.
6.14 p.m.
Lord Naseby: My Lords, before beginning my remarks, perhaps as an aside I may observe that five minutes for Back-Benchers is more than adequate, and I wonder why the usual channels cannot tune in a little more sensibly to what Back-Benchers feel.
I am motivated by paragraph 3 of the report, and in particular by the sentence:
- "Parliament also has the duty on behalf of the public to hold the government of the day to account".
It seems to me that there is an enormous consensus in favour of pre-legislative hearings. That is basic good practice. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, said that pre-legislative scrutiny is working well in the Scottish Parliament, and there is probably unanimity across the House that that would be a major advance.
However, there does not seem to be any linkage in legislative terms between the introduction of pre- legislative scrutiny and a trade-off. The House may have to agree to a hold-over. The two considerations are entirely separate. One is a matter of trying to improve the nature of legislation; the other is the length of time that it takes a Bill to complete its passage in this House. It is one of the pressures of Opposition to force the government of the day, who may ill-advisedly have chosen to introduce far too many major Bills, to choose which one to drop. But if all the Bills have received a pre-legislative hearing, they will all get through, and the pressure that the Opposition can apply will have been mitigated.
Parliament needs to go so far as to say to itself that the real problem is that no government have ever agreed to contain the number of major and minor Bills that they will bring forward in a Session. That should be attainable. It would not be for Parliament to determine the nature of those Bills, but the number of Bills should be agreed by all parties. Until that happens, the capacity of Parliament to legislate will remain constant, and there will always be a logjam. If agreement on pre-legislative hearings leads to an automatic carry-over, I for one shall not join that particular army of supporters.
I listened with great interest to the noble Lord who has just spoken, who is a member of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, which I had the privilege to chair many years ago. It is an invaluable
committee. Your Lordships may need reminding that some 4,000 statutory instruments go through in any one year. That is a huge number. The concept of a new committee of this House helping out is laudable and would represent progress, but it is not a gigantic leap forward. We as parliamentarians, must find a way of making sure that, first, we understand the contents of those statutory instruments and, secondly—the noble Lord, Lord Lea, was absolutely right—having understood them, and having found some wanting in terms of time, content or impact, Parliament must have the ability to control those elements. At present, although the Royal Commission made it clear that there should be change and that we should have the ability to amend statutory instruments, until such time as we have such an ability, these proposals are laudable but are only a tiny step forward. I hope that the knowledge of the noble Lord who is a member of the Joint Committee will be used when the Procedure Committee takes its further hurried evidence before 8th July.On the question of September Sittings, such a proposal is highly questionable unless they take place towards the end of September. It seems to me quite wrong that everyone in the United Kingdom should have to take their vacation in August. That should be resisted.
In conclusion, perhaps I may put two questions to the Lord Privy Seal. He said in his opening remarks that the report is a package of measures. My first question is: will it come back from the Procedure Committee as a package of measures? If it does, that will be a major problem. If it comes back as a series of four or five recommendations, I believe that this House will want to vote on them. If only four get through, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that will be progress.
Secondly—the noble and learned Lord may be intending to refer to this point in his reply—why is 8th July so precious? It is difficult to understand why that particular date is so precious as opposed to a date at the end of July or in September. I can understand why it is necessary for the Procedure Committee to present its proposals before the start of the new Session, but I am mystified as to why it must be by 8th July, unless the House is rising on 10th July.
6.20 p.m.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, many of us want to express our gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Denham, for tabling his amendment—for which I shall certainly vote. An admirable guardian of the conventions of your Lordships' House, the noble Lord spotted that the original Motion was out of order—so much so that an uncharitably disposed person might even imagine that the leaders of the parties were trying to sneak through this House changes in working practices, the effects of some of which almost amount to constitutional change.
I well understand why the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, signed the report. Many of its recommendations would help
the Government to push their legislation through Parliament, whatever they say. I cannot understand why anyone else signed. Perhaps the other party leaders were happily anticipating the day when they would be in government and wanting to push through legislation.I am hard pushed to find anything good to say about the report. I start with paragraph 4, concerning the trial period. We have all heard that one before. It reminds me of a nightmarish double roundabout at Barnton in Edinburgh, which was introduced about 25 years ago on an "experimental basis" and was one of the most difficult and dangerous hazards for a driver to negotiate that I have ever encountered. That experiment lasted about 20 years before minimal alterations were made, so I have little faith in trial periods ever coming to an end.
Pre-legislative scrutiny seems to be the flavour of the decade. It is used in the Scottish Parliament—where, disastrously, it is deemed a fit substitute for a second Chamber. If the Government were not trying to produce more Bills than they have time to think through—and the parliamentary draftsmen had time to draft properly—pre-legislative scrutiny would be unnecessary. I have many misgivings. Not least is my dark suspicion that the next step might be the abolition of one of the latter stages of Bills hitherto taken by the whole House, not by a committee sitting in some upstairs room in the mornings.
Of all the report's thoroughly undesirable recommendations, the carry-over of Bills is much the worse. It is a blatant attempt to neutralise—I would almost say, sterilise—the Opposition. The noble Lord, Lord Dean of Harptree, expressed concern that carry-over would affect the operation of the Parliament Act—which gives rise to constitutional implications.
I do not approve of Bills being committed to Grand Committees unless they can divide on amendments. I am horrified at the suggestion that the House or Grand Committees should sit in September and that Grand Committees should sit when the House is not sitting—which virtually negates the right of any Peer to sit on a Grand Committee. As to either the House or committees sitting in September, I wonder what consultations took place with Black Rod or the superintendent of the Refreshment Department. It is curious that the report's signatories appear to have forgotten completely repairs and maintenance work on this palace—for which it is absolutely necessary to have at least two clear months in August and September. Extra weeks at Christmas and Easter are no use at all. For serious structural work, it is necessary to have a long, unbroken period at a time when tradesmen are not on holiday. Scant thought appears to have been given to the security staff, catering staff, Doorkeepers and Clerks whose holidays would be affected. We all know how willingly they return for emergency debates, such as that following September 11 and the tributes to Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother—but that is no excuse for them to be imposed upon.
My list of unacceptable proposals includes sitting at 11 a.m. on Thursday. One reason that the House cannot sit in the mornings is that many Peers still have to earn their livings—which they try to do in the mornings, coming here when they can get away from work. Attending morning sittings on Thursdays would not be possible for them. As one who lives in the north of Scotland, the latest that it is possible for me to leave the House and return home the same night is 6 o'clock—and then I do not get home until after 11 p.m. If the House were to sit at 9 o'clock and rise by 4 p.m., that would be more helpful for getting home that night for those of us who live far away. Most of us just leave early unless we are involved with the business of the day. I think that is a better way. Morning sittings should wait until the House consists entirely of paid Members.
I could live with most of the other proposals reasonably happily and I agree with one—the recommendation that the shortcomings of the Moses Room should be corrected. The acoustics are deplorable and the cold in winter can be such that, on one occasion, I had to leave a meeting to put on my overcoat. Proper heating would be welcome. That should be provided in any event, not be dependent on the implementation of the rest of the proposals.
There is one simple solution to the problems that the report's recommendations are intended to solve—less legislation. Give the poor people of this country a break from endless new laws and regulations to fall foul of—some unenforceable—and from endless changes in the way that the health service, education and local government are run and justice is administered, which drive those responsible for implementing them dotty. Only the lawyers will weep. Then there might be time for the necessary scrutiny of the rules and regulations that pour out of Brussels, which must be properly examined. It would help if another place did its job better, by discussing all amendments to Bills as we do—instead of wasting time on points of order—and getting rid of the guillotine.
6.27 p.m.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Gordon of Strathblane, that we need a common watering hole—something about which I have spoken often to Chief Whips, Leaders of the House and others. Nothing has come of it yet. How can we seriously operate as a Parliament? I have been here 10 years and have yet to meet an MP socially. There is nowhere that I can run into Members of another place, unless I encounter them on business occasionally. I have no rights to go where MPs have a drink and they have no rights here. We cannot even meet to eat. It is ridiculous and something that we should address as a matter of urgency. I am delighted to enjoy support in all parts of the House and wish that there could be the same support from members of the Front Benches.
I agree with my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes that we need to consider the way that committee members are selected. We are giving significant new powers to those who select committees.
It is to that extent natural for members of the Front Benches to think that they should choose. The time is coming for moving in the same direction as another place, by giving Back-Benchers a say in who gets on to committees. If we go down the road proposed, Members of the Front Benches will have the power to exclude the likes of myself and the noble Lord, Lord Peston, on the ground that we might disagree with Front Bench policy. That would be entirely undesirable, especially in respect of the noble Lord.I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, that this is a good report. I am delighted that the Leader of the House has produced, with typical energy and direction, something that for a long time our own procedures have failed to produce. It would have been nice if this had been done gradually over the past 20 years, but that has not happened.
I stand on my dignity as a Back-Bencher and say that this report is not an order to us but a request to us. It is for this House as a whole to consider. The report is very well put together, and I can see the arguments for treating it as a package. However, it is our privilege to decide whether to treat it as a package. There is nothing that this group, however august, can do to instruct us on what our procedures should be.
I was disturbed by the brief discussion that I had with the noble Lord, Lord Peston, on the implications of the Lord Privy Seal's Motion. If the effect is to tell the Procedure Committee that it cannot consider substantive changes to the report and must implement it as it is, I would be very concerned. The report has been produced by Front-Benchers, but there are many Back-Bench aspects that should properly be taken into account.
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