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Baroness Blatch: I did not go very far back. City technology colleges, city academies, specialist schools, the remaining grammar schools and the introduction of 10 per cent selection at many of our schools are all current policy, not only of the recent Conservative government, five and a bit years ago, but of the current Government of whom the noble Lord is a member.

Lord Peston: I am not a member of the Government. That may be to the Government's loss, but perhaps I may make the famous remark, "I am not and never have been a member of the Government". I was speaking for myself. I was saying that the noble Baroness has outlined everything that I have spent my whole life in education opposing. I should add, just to rub the point in, that the sooner we get rid of the grammar schools, the better it will be for the education system of this country. The same applies to specialist schools and so on. I am opposed to selection, which is disastrous for our education and for the education of all of our children.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, mentioned the politics of envy. However, people like me who are incredibly clever do not have to be envious of any of these things at all, because we were the ones of whom everyone was envious. We got everything. We had to grow up and mature—I certainly did—to know that, apart from everything else, that was morally wrong. As I have said before to your Lordships, in the grammar school I attended, we were divided from the moment we arrived. Everyone thought it was a great triumph to

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get past the 11-plus, but, before one looked round, some of us were in the A form and quite a few were in the D form. It is that that some of us have fought all our lives to try to take out of our education system.

On the aptitude/ability theme, I know that my noble friend the Minister has previously tried to explain the distinction, and I am sure that she will try to explain it again today. The research evidence is overwhelming that aptitude measured in a narrow sphere and ability measured in a broad sphere are enormously highly correlated. As those of us who remember the 11-plus will recall, we had a test that tested our aptitude in mathematics and our aptitude in English. The idea that it was a measure of general ability was simply the view of people like Sir Cyril Burt, who probably did more damage to the education system of this country than anyone else we can think of. The idea was that these measures of aptitude were measures of general ability. Therefore, the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, is entirely right.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that the Government have gone down this path. However, that does not mean that I personally have to accept it. I think that, one day, we shall realise what an error that was. I regard all the other forms of selection she mentioned as equally bad. I am therefore particularly indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, as I was wondering when I would get an opportunity to make a pro-comprehensive speech today. Until the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, spoke, I did not realise that this debate would give me that opportunity. Some of us ought to go on record as saying that we believe in what we have always believed in. Sometimes we may deviate from that but we at least like to believe—I say to the right reverend Prelate that this may be a matter of faith rather than anything else—that one day the education system of this country will revert to what it should be.

Lord Roberts of Conwy: The noble Lord mystified me in an earlier debate when he appeared to vent his feelings so strongly against selection for particular kinds of schools. But in his latest contribution he accepted the fact that, as soon as a child enters the secondary phase, selection automatically takes place. The noble Lord referred to his own experience of selection. How on earth can one not have selection in schools by way of streaming or some children being more interested in a particular group of subjects than others—for example, the sciences or the arts? That surely is inevitable. Irrespective of whether an outside authority does the selection or a head teacher, the child himself will select.

Lord Peston: I referred to the grammar school I attended. I pointed out that it was selective before one got there and became even more selective once one was inside. My experience of comprehensive schools—I refer, for example, to the schools that my children attended—is that their philosophy is different. Their philosophy is that every child can be taught and that the role of the teacher is to bring out the best in every

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child being taught in the school and not to say, "Some children are capable of being educated but others are not".

All children are worthy. To go back to the politics of envy phenomenon, clever young people, as I was, have to be told, "So what? You are just a person like everyone else in the school. You do not deserve more resources. You do not deserve more attention". I am totally committed to that philosophy. I am not saying that some children do not work harder than others or that teachers do not have their favourite pupils. As my daughter, who teaches non-literate young people has discovered, it is certainly easier to teach someone who is literate. It is much easier to teach someone who is already "OK". However, our task is to regard every young person as worthy of an education.

Some of us may not have aptitudes in certain areas. I have no aptitude for drawing. It did me the world of good to be made to look completely incompetent in that field. The teacher tried to get me to understand perspective. I understood it mathematically but I could not understand how to incorporate it in drawing. The noble Baroness is entirely right to say that there is a fundamental difference of philosophy between us on this matter. She has given us the opportunity to make clear which of us believe in what. I am totally indebted to her for that.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for his support. At one point I felt somewhat isolated in the Chamber. I reiterate the point that we are here talking about selection at the age of 11. The Government's campaign of having more specialist schools has been successful. However, I believe that it has been successful as the route of becoming a specialist school has brought more money into those schools. It brings an extra half a million pounds of funding into any secondary school. That has been the main driving force behind it. We do not deny that that money has helped to improve performance. In this country we spend on average £2,500 per secondary school pupil. Private schools spend £6,000 plus per pupil. If we could spend an extra £500 per secondary school pupil, that would make a difference to results. The reason schools want to go the specialist route is to gain those resources.

I agreed with the Minister's comment that it is good for schools to feel that they have something to shout about. That makes them proud and gives them an ethos. Nevertheless, why select? I come back to the point at which we started. One cannot select someone satisfactorily at the age of 11 according to aptitude or ability. The important point about the comprehensive principle is that it holds open the doors so that pupils can display their capabilities and develop them. We know that children develop at different rates. Some are early developers but some are late developers. It is vitally important to hold open the doors and to give them the chance to develop. That is what the comprehensive system is about. That is why we on these Benches support it.

Baroness Blatch: This is an interesting and rather important debate. However, I say to the noble

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Baroness, Lady Sharp, that one can select at the age of 11 and it does work. One can see examples of that around the country. As this debate will be read by people outside the Chamber, I ask the noble Baroness whether it is her party's proposition that all selection should end and that all specialist schools, all city academies, all academies, all city technology colleges and all grammar schools should be converted to comprehensive schools? Is that what the noble Baroness argues for—an end to selection and a one size fits all schools?

Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I answer that by saying that as a party we believe in devolution of responsibilities. Although as a party we are committed to comprehensive education, we acknowledge that local authorities have traditionally run education in this country. We believe in a regime—which this Government and the previous government, if I might say so, have done their best to ditch—of diversity and pluralism in government. Local authorities have an important role to play and, given that education is one of their responsibilities, it is up to them to make their own decisions on this matter. In this vein, we acknowledge that the boroughs of Kingston and Sutton prefer to keep their grammar schools.

Baroness Blatch: The noble Baroness has introduced an interesting confused note into the debate. We ought to act with some humility in this Chamber. We are enormously privileged to belong to it. We are increasingly privileged still—unless the impending reforms of this place change that—to be party to making legislation. If the noble Baroness believes in devolution of responsibilities, she should not in her position as a maker of legislation cut off the opportunity to allow people to make decisions at a local level on whether they want to keep selection. The amendment of the noble Baroness states that we in this Chamber decree that there will be no selection by ability. However, at the same time the noble Baroness is trying to argue that her party believes in devolution of responsibilities and that people should make their own decisions at the local level.

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