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Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for raising that initial point. I agree with him entirely. Sixth forms play the role that he has identified. I hope that nothing I have said this evening detracts from our support, commitment and admiration for the enormously good work that is done by sixth forms of widely varying size across the country.
I want to respond to the final point kindly made by the noble Lord. All local interests will be taken into account. I sought to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, whose amendments probed the issues of consultation, which we regard as extremely important. There is no doubt that when a sixth form is performing a function that is greatly valued by parents and young people, there is no question of its status being altered. The purpose and objectives of the LSC are how to enhance educational opportunities.
The reason why I hestiated on the question posed by the noble Lord, for which I apologise, is that I was unable to remember the name of the school that was whizzing round in my mind. That is a problem that we
all have late at night. There is a sixth-form college run by the local authority in Hammersmith—the William Morris school. It has a special status as it evolved in special circumstances a number of years ago. That is the exception to the general provision across the country, and that is why it has to be recognised. It is an interesting and fine establishment, but it is not a precursor to any other proposals for a similar institution.
Lord Lucas: I was referring to new Section 113A, which is how the new sixth-form only institutions will be established. They will be established as maintained schools under an LEA rather than as new sixth-form colleges. That is the wording that interests me most. Is it proposed that William Morris should be the model rather than the sixth form colleges that currently exist? If so, why has that been chosen, rather than—since the LSC is involved—creating new sixth-form colleges alongside existing ones?
Lord Davies of Oldham: The framework provides for the possibility of a sixth-form college developing under LEA auspices. Sixth-form colleges have established a good reputation in many parts of the country—the noble Lord referred to Cambridge, where there are two outstanding achievements. That is more likely to be the model, but we are not seeking to prejudge the position in this legislation.
Lord Lucas: Perhaps the noble Lord might prefer to write to me. It seems that new Section 113A only allows William Morris colleges to be established rather than sixth form colleges, which were originally FEFC colleges. If I have misunderstood the situation I am sorry, but I should like to understand how a sixth form FEFC college, on the old model, can be established under this part of the Bill.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord has a reputation for modesty. He suggests that he might have misunderstood the position, but it is as likely that I have. If I have, I shall in due course apologise to him. I will certainly write to him, if necessary, with any correction to the position that I have put forward today.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: I thank the Minister for his response to the various amendments to which I have spoken. I am reassured that the Government will consult fully locally on any move by the LSC and that it would be a transparent move.
I have one reservation about the whole business. Too often there is a tendency to change for the sake of change. These are institutions, some of which have only just begun to put down and feel their roots. There is a rumour that we will see more change and that we shall have big sixth form/FE colleges for the 16 to 19-year olds, putting up Chinese walls between the various parts of their provision and so forth. That is all very unsatisfactory. We really want to give these colleges a chance to get off the ground and to develop the new relationship with the LSC. They are just
beginning to do that and we do not want to see yet more change. I hope that none of these rumours will come true.In the meantime, given the lateness of the hour and the hope that we had that we were going to finish some time ago, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. No, I do not beg leave to withdraw, I just sit down.
Baroness Blatch: It is my amendment, so if anyone is going to withdraw the amendment, I shall. I just might run a vote. It would liven us all up. The Minister a moment ago referred to it being very late at night. I remind him that it is actually early in the morning that we are discussing the amendment.
I am not surprised that the noble Lord floundered when he talked about William Morris. William Morris was established by stealth. It was illegal for a long time until in a recent statute the Labour Government made it legal. The students remained on the rolls of their parent school and not on that of William Morris. There is nothing like it in the country. The way that it was established and the way that Hammersmith and Fulham turned a blind eye to the legal position was an absolute disgrace. Indeed, I must say that I believe that the department was also complicit in that.
My basic point is to ask why the LSC should be involved at all. Sixth forms are not add-ons to schools. Where they exist they are an integral part of the whole school. The idea of siphoning off the sixth forms to be responsible to another body—again an unelected and unaccountable body—away from the other part of the school which is accountable to its local education authority is a recipe for disaster. It is not surprising that they feel vulnerable.
In the past when the Government have funded a whole school, the way that that money was spent by the school and how it was distributed between the teaching of sixth-formers and other children in the school was a matter for the governors.
The staff who teach sixth-formers will teach other young people in the school. There is an integrated network of activities between the sixth form and the rest of the school. The notion that they are somehow add-ons is a retrograde step.
I am rather sad that the Government have gone down that road, other than to understand what the hidden agenda is. The hidden agenda is tertiary education. In days gone by, the Labour Party made no secret of this. They do not dare mention its name now because they know it is unpopular with schools that have sixth forms. The truth is that they always did have an open agenda about tertiary education. Now, as I say, it is a policy that dare not speak its name.
I should like an assurance from the Minister, today if possible, that a sixth form would only be abolished if it was failing in the quality of education that it offered its students, that it would not be closed on cost grounds; it would not be an economic decision. I wrote down the Minister's words. He said that it would be decided on the quality and sufficiency of provision. As well as asking for those assurances, I also want him to explain what he means by "sufficiency of provision".
Is he saying that if it is possible to remove a sixth form and disperse the children around other schools in the area to satisfy a spare places argument, as opposed to whether or not the quality of education is good, a sixth form could be closed?The noble Lord views as a virtue the whole raft and panoply of consultation processes that would be in place. I am not concerned with that, because if the Learning and Skills Council wants to abolish sixth forms to achieve its hidden agenda, it can consult with all and sundry, with a relevant interest or otherwise, but at the end of the day, the LSC makes the decision. It can listen and be terribly patient, but if it wants a sixth form to be abolished, it has the power to do so. If the educational standard is satisfactory or better, on what other grounds could a sixth form be abolished?
12.15 a.m.
Lord Davies of Oldham: Perhaps I may disabuse the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, of her notion that there is a secret agenda that is the result of a Labour Party commitment to tertiary education. She is absolutely right that there are people within the Labour Party, as there in the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats and all parties, in favour of tertiary education, but I assure her that I have never read a document issued by my party nor have I been involved in any discussion of education—and I have been in a few—in which there was a commitment to tertiary education as the sole route by which to provide post-16 education. I have never read such a document or been involved in such a process. She may know my party better than I do, but I beg to differ on that point.
On the more general point about what criteria there are other than education, there are none—only the best possible educational opportunity for the children in the area. The noble Baroness must recognise that educational opportunity for young people these days must often have considerable breadth in its provision. Of course, it can be of high quality across a limited spectrum, but young people—and the wider society that we seek to educate and train—increasingly demand greater breadth and a greater range of choice in education. All of our proposals relating to changes in education for 14 to 19 year-olds are predicated on that assumption. She must recognise that an element in the decision must
necessarily be what young people think of the quality of education provision as represented in terms of their breadth of opportunity.
I assure the noble Baroness that the criterion relates to educational achievement and the raising of standards, which is the objective of the Learning and Skills Council, as it is of the Government.
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