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Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. Will she push all the relevant departments and agencies of Her Majesty's Government to make a practical contribution to natural disaster reduction by ensuring that governments and United Nations agencies everywhere improve the exchange of data and the short-term forecasting of natural disasters, such as floods, storms and landslides? We must overcome the many bureaucratic and national security-related obstacles, which can often have fatal effects.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, we are working across government—the Department for International Development, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Ministry of Defence and the Cabinet Office—on issues relating to disaster preparedness and disaster reduction. We are also working to strengthen
and improve the international disaster response system, including the exchange of data, under the co-ordination of the United Nations.
Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, has the Minister assessed the cost to the taxpayer of taking more than 30 civil servants to a pre-summit meeting in Bali? Is it now government policy for ministerial special advisers to travel first-class at public expense, as is happening on this occasion?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, the cost is, I believe, about £150,000. Noble Lords will be aware that sustainable development is not only one of the key planks of our strategy for development but is one of the priority areas for Defra. I attended a UN conference last year—the world conference against racism—and saw how our delegation worked extremely hard to influence the agenda and the outcome. That is the situation in this case, too. We should thank our civil servants for doing such a good job.
Lord Redesdale: My Lords, given the ongoing effects of global warming, will the Minister, with as many staff as she can take, for I hope that the conference contingent will be adequate for the task that it must undertake, push for the setting up of a fund to meet the cost of disasters? Global warming means that they happen more regularly.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, as I said to my noble friend Lord Hunt of Chesterton, we are considering ways of promoting co-ordination through the United Nations system. The noble Lord will be aware that, so far as possible, we try not to set up parallel structures or new funds but endeavour to make the existing mechanisms work as well as possible. We are not considering trying to set up a new fund in this instance; we want to make the existing machinery work as effectively as possible.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, what steps have been taken to liaise with the organisations in this country, particularly with ACOPS, of which I am president? Will she say what particular role is being played by the Government in that respect? Does she not agree with me that it is very important that every effort is made to agree a line with the governmental and non-governmental organisations in this country?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, yes. I agree with my noble friend that we need to consult and liaise as closely as possible with NGOs. We shall continue that process and, of course, ACOPS is an important part of it.
Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, the Minister says that the Government are doing everything possible to alleviate the effects of natural disasters. Can she therefore explain why not one of the 14 recommendations of the Task Force on Potentially Hazardous Near Earth Objects has been implemented or even started to be implemented?
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have the detail for which the noble Lord asks, but I shall happily write to him. I am aware that Defra and other departments which are studying disaster reduction and disaster preparedness have been looking at a number of different reports and co-ordinating their response through the UN.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I refer to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, about NGOs and declare an interest as chairman of Plan International UK. Does the Minister agree that it is important to recognise that work can be done in disaster areas by NGOs already in place and with knowledge of the community? For example, in Vietnam when floods destroyed the rice crop the NGOs present were able to develop alternative crops in order to prevent starvation.
Baroness Amos: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. We know from our response to disasters that the best work comes from NGOs already on the ground. The other important element is to ensure that in putting disaster preparedness plans in place, we work with NGOs which have great experience in the field.
Community Sentences
2.52 p.m.
Lord Marlesford asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they are satisfied that adequate use is being made of community service orders as alternatives to custodial sentences in the United Kingdom; and, if not, what steps they intend to take to improve the situation.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, the Government believe that greater use should be made of community penalties for non-violent offenders, such as those convicted of theft, handling or fraud. The reform of the probation service, with its central focus on reducing re-offending, means that rigorously enforced community sentences are a real and tough alternative to imprisonment and likely to be most effective in reducing re-offending for many offenders, especially those currently sentenced to short terms of imprisonment.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is a great deal better to keep most non-violent offenders out of prison, and it is a great deal better from the point of view of the taxpayer because prison is extremely expensive? If the Government believe in the use of the community service system, how is it that over the past four years, a period in which the prison population has gone sky-high, the use of community service has stagnated, as revealed in the Written Answer which I received on 1st May from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker? It has increased by only 6 per cent in England and in Scotland it has actually fallen by 10 per cent. Does he not realise that there is something
seriously wrong with the way in which community service is administered and used? Will he do something positive about that rather than merely talking about the reform of the probation service?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. It is important that we make good use of community service orders and community punishment orders. The information I have suggests that community service and punishment orders have increased from some 45,900 in 1996 to 50,000 in 2000; so there is an increase and I think the noble Lord should welcome that. Some 30 per cent of those sentenced in England and Wales in 2000 for indictable offences were given community sentences compared to 25 per cent who received immediate custody. Therefore there is acceptance and widespread use of these orders and I believe that Members on all sides of your Lordships' House will welcome that, not least because of the very important point that the noble Lord makes about cost.
Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, does my noble friend accept that the cost of someone on community service is about £2,500 a year, whereas the cost of somebody in prison is about £25,000 a year and that there is some doubt as to whether those who are sentenced to prison are more or less likely to re-offend? In the circumstances, will he please undertake to look to see whether it is correct that the community service is underfunded and would do a better job if it were better funded? Will he then report back to the House and tell us whether some more funding will be available to a service which is so very cost-effective and important?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, it is true to say that recent legislation has re-emphasised the importance of supervision in the community, which was the principal purpose of reforming the probation service. The noble Lord's figures for the relative costs are slightly inaccurate. The information I have suggests that community service orders cost about £1,800 each and that a new prison place costs approximately £32,000 per year.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, there is always a danger with information that you can shoot yourself in the foot! The point I was really trying to underline was that the noble Lord has made an extremely pertinent point and it is valuable to reflect more on it. The Government have maintained a very careful review of community sentencing and that is why we have underlined its importance. That is why the Home Secretary has done exactly that in recent speeches and comments. Obviously, there is more work to do to ensure that community service orders are properly enforced.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I speak as the junior Minister who took the Criminal Justice Act
1972 through all its stages in another place. Does the Minister agree that the introduction of community service was one of the most important changes in penal policy in the past 30 years? Are not the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has mentioned, showing a proportionate reduction in its use, very disturbing? Surely the best answer to prison overcrowding is a reduction in the number of short sentences and their replacement by an increased use of community service. Will the Minister confirm that that is so and that that is the view of the Government?
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