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Baroness Williams of Crosby: We very much hope that his family will understand how closely and dearly
we in the House hold his reputation and we hope that he will have a happy retirement—or if not, that he will make many contributions to the House in future. We shall listen to him with great interest and attention.Like the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, I should like to welcome the successor to the noble Lord, Lord Carter, but of course we wait to find out who it is.
I shall be brief. I am delighted that the Joint Committee is to be set up. Those of us who remember the history of the matter will recall that long ago, in the Cook-Maclennan agreement of 1997, there was a recommendation for a Joint Committee. In that context, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart and the then Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook. I also thank my noble friend Lord Rogers of Quarrybank for the part that he played in pressing for a Joint Committee along with the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.
The purpose of the Motion is simple and I need not detain the House. It is extremely well expressed in paragraph (2)(a), which states that one of the main purposes of the Joint Committee will be,
- "to ensure the proper functioning of Parliament as a whole".
We in this House will take the Joint Committee very seriously, recognising that the time for reform cannot be permanently delayed, but that there is a great will in the House to make us as effective as possible. Once again, I thank the Government and in this House the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House for the manner in which he has proposed, and the phraseology that has been used to describe, the work of the Joint Committee. We on these Benches wish it every possible success.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords—
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, perhaps we can hear from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley.
Lord Craig of Radley: Thank you, my Lords. First, I add on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches our thanks and appreciation for everything that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, did during his period as Government Chief Whip. He has been a marvellous person to work with. He has often reminded me that I could not speak for anyone else on these Benches, but at the same time he was always extremely helpful and courteous and I have greatly enjoyed working with him. He will be sadly missed by me and, I am sure, by all noble Lords on these Benches.
I have only two points to make. I was grateful to hear the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, make the point that Cross-Bench representation is an important feature of the Joint Committee. I shall draw the attention of the committee to the fact that, whereas from the other place there will be representation from parties, there will be no representation from independents or Cross-Benchers. Therefore, the total representation of the Joint Committee should contain sufficient Cross-Benchers to ensure that their points of view are well represented. In this case, the formula 2:2:1:1 does not work towards that result.
My second point, which is important, is that eventually we shall receive several options from the Joint Committee and it is not clear to me from the terms of reference whether it will be for the Joint Committee to determine the order in which it believes that the two Houses should address those options or whether it will be for the Government to put them to the House in a particular order. It is perhaps an unfair comparison, but I am thinking of the way in which the nominations for the Speaker in the other place were dealt with last time. If several options are to be put to us, the order in which and how they are presented will be important. I hope that the Joint Committee will address that in its deliberations.
The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, we on these Benches would also like to be associated with the tributes paid to the noble Lord, Lord Carter, whom we have always found to be courteous and often accommodating in our dealings with him. We wish him well for the future.
We have already made it clear that we welcome the proposal to set up a Joint Committee and I underline that welcome now. Of course, in order for the committee to be effective and persuasive it will need to show itself as wise and just in the complex range of issues that have so challenged previous efforts at reform of this House. Those include both the functions and composition of the House—how individuals become Members of the second Chamber is relevant to both of those considerations.
Submissions on behalf of the Church of England on those matters have made it clear that, while we welcome the idea of an elected element, we do not believe that election is the only means of conferring legitimacy. Nor should it be assumed necessarily to offer the best means of equipping the future House with the expertise and range of insights and viewpoints to lend distinction and value to its work. Of course, one area where that is relevant is the future shape and scope of the religious and spiritual aspects of its composition. I do not imagine that, in the eyes of many Members of either House, that will be the most urgent challenge. However, that does not make it unimportant. In a constitutional arrangement that vests sovereignty in the monarch in Parliament under God, it can hardly be so unimportant. We believe it will be sensible for the committee to include among its members someone with the experience and expertise needed to inform its deliberations on these and other
matters touching on the religious and spiritual dimension of our national life. That should be engaged with in this Chamber.As noble Lords will be aware, we on these Benches have been enthusiastic proponents of widening the religious presence both in terms of Christian denominations and of other faiths. My friend, colleague and successor, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester has already raised here the proposal for a Lord spiritual to serve on the Joint Committee. The Government's response to that request was far from discouraging, and we are grateful also to have had the support of the Leader of the Opposition.
We do not seek this role in a narrow and self-serving way, but in the firm belief that the Joint Committee should be able to do justice to the many challenges it faces. I want therefore to urge that the Joint Committee will be less strong, less representative and more narrowly drawn than would be good or appropriate if it failed to contain an explicit representative of the religious dimension of our constitution, upon which much of the work of Parliament frequently rests.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, our side.
Lord Strathclyde: The noble Lord is a Privy Counsellor.
The Earl of Onslow: Is he? I beg his pardon.
Lord Barnett: My Lords, I want first to share with the House my view of the former Chief Whip, my noble friend Lord Carter. We have had one or two disagreements—minor ones—but I endorse everything that has been said about him.
I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, say that there was some modest disagreement on his side on the issue. I assume that he still wants 80 per cent of the Members of your Lordships' House to be elected. I found one Conservative who agreed with him; he will know who that is.
I want to ask my noble and learned friend the Leader of the House a few questions. From the reference in the Motion to the "category" of Member, I take it that he now accepts that a hybrid House would create huge problems. He has previously replied, in a pleasantly jocular way, that it already was a hybrid House. Certainly, there are differences of opinion in the House, but a hybrid House, with elected and unelected Members, would create huge problems. I am glad to see that the Motion accepts that; I hope that he does.
Secondly, I want to ask my noble and learned friend about options. We could all put options on the back of an envelope. That should not take too much time, but it would be a different matter when it came
back to both Houses. Paragraphs 2(a) and (b)—in particular—of the Motion refer to legal and constitutional matters. Can my noble and learned friend define that, or do we need my noble and learned friends Lord Falconer of Thoroton and the Lord Chancellor to explain what it means in respect of anything that the committee will consider?I should also be interested to know from my noble and learned friend what percentages of which House are being referred to. What will be the size of the House? How will we get to a reasonable figure from the 700 to 800 or 900 that might arise from the eventual views of the committee? Will the committee have the opportunity to take written and oral evidence and travel abroad to see how other Houses operate? My noble and learned friend has referred constantly to consensus. How will he get consensus on this? Is it still the Government's policy to get consensus on whatever new House we have as a second Chamber? If it is his view that we need consensus, we will never have any changes in your Lordships' House.
I want also to know about the timescale. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House in another place has spoken of 90 days. Is that 90 days for the setting up of the Joint Committee? It seems more likely that that should be the case than that we should get a report from it in that time. However, assuming that we get a report before, say, Christmas, does my noble and learned friend envisage our moving forward to a Bill in the next Session? I should be grateful if he could tell us.
4.15 p.m.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords—
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