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Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, it is the turn of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, to speak, but, before he does, I should like gently to remind your Lordships of paragraph 4.14 of the Companion:

"Debate must be relevant to the Question before the House".

We are simply discussing the terms of the Motion, not any consequential questions, fascinating though they may be.

The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I express, first of all, a minor regret that hereditary peerages are no longer being created. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, would certainly deserve to be elevated to one.

As someone who has advocated reform of the House for a long time, I believe that the Government have, on this occasion, got the thing absolutely right. They must be congratulated on that. Funnily enough, it may be because we have had five years of shilly-shallying, waffle and, for want of a better word, cock-up—is one allowed to say that? I think one can—that there is now an emerging consensus in the country in favour of a partially elected—more than 50 per cent—and partially appointed House. That seems to be the general view. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, does not like the word "hybrid", but I see nothing wrong with it.

The committee will have the opportunity to make as good a constitutional settlement as our forebears did in 1688. It must seize that opportunity, and we must

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get it right. We must redress the balance in Parliament, so that we can go back to the ideals of our Whig forebears and have a proper, balanced Parliament that can hold the executive properly to account. The Joint Committee looks as if it can do that, and, if it can, it will deserve the justifiable thanks not only of our fellow subjects but of future citizens.

Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, I add my welcome to those given by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, to the setting up of the Joint Committee.

May we be assured that the committee's terms of reference will allow it to address the question of the accountability of the executive to Parliament, to which the noble and learned Lord attached such importance, when he was discussing the working practices of your Lordships' House? Secondly, I know that there was some difficulty about the timing of the meeting of the Committee of Selection that will select the members of the Joint Committee. I understand that, in the end, the timing was changed to meet my convenience. I am extremely grateful for that, especially to the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees and to the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House, who assisted in that regard.

Lord Renton: My Lords, I spent 34 years in another place, including seven years in government. Four and a half of those years were spent in the Home Office, where I helped Lord Butler of Saffron Walden pilot the Life Peerages Act 1958. I have also spent 23 years in your Lordships' House. In those years, there have already been tremendous constitutional changes, and there have been changes in the membership of another place that we should bear in mind, however courteous we are in our expression of those changes.

Fortunately, the Motion refers to our great responsibility as a revising Chamber. If we are to exercise that responsibility in a way that really helps the constitution, we must retain a vast amount of the expertise found in your Lordships' House but no longer found elsewhere. Therefore, if I may say so, it is essential that the committee should bear that in mind. In order that the committee may inquire into that matter as deeply as possible, will the noble and learned Lord please tell us whether, under the powers given by the resolution, the committee will have power to take evidence from witnesses? There is nothing in the resolution about that, but I express the hope that that will be possible.

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Carter. Over the years he has ensured that we stayed until the early hours of the morning when necessary, but he did so in a way that earned him our respect and affection. That is a difficult combination. Had he given me advice before today's debate, he would have said, "Speak if you must but for God's sake, keep it short". I shall obey my noble friend even though he is no longer sitting in his former place on the Front Bench.

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I appreciate that it is not for the Government to tell committees how to do their work or when they should do it. But is my noble and learned friend prepared to drop the tiniest hint as to the timescale of the committee's work, and if it were to sit, dare I say it, in September, would that not be for the good of the House and the benefit of all of us? Secondly, is it intended that the committee should sit for a period and then give both Houses its report, or is it intended that the House will get a first report, and then both Houses will pass resolutions about powers and composition and the committee will then return to its work in more detail?

Thirdly, will my noble and learned friend clarify a point in paragraph (2)of the Motion, which states that the committee should,

"report on options for the composition and powers of the House of Lords and . . . define and present to both Houses options for composition"?

Is that one and the same process, or is the slight ambiguity in the wording the result of the compromise that had to be achieved? If so, what does it mean?

Lord Renton of Mount Harry: My Lords, as a relatively new Member of this House I want to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Carter. I remember his help when two or three years ago I introduced a Private Member's Bill on the subject of areas of outstanding natural beauty. With his help I found it a great deal easier to get a Private Member's Bill at least through some stages of the process here than I ever did in my 25 years in the House of Commons. I was pleased that the following year the Government adopted a number of my proposals and included them in the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. I shall never forget the help given to me by the noble Lord, Lord Carter, in that instance.

I am very pleased to welcome the Joint Committee. It has, as my noble friend Lord Strathclyde said, a chance to make historic decisions leading to a new constitutional settlement that will be of enormous importance. I am delighted with the terms of reference and am pleased that it will investigate the,

"powers of the Second Chamber and its role and authority within the context of Parliament as a whole".

A few of your Lordships will remember that I introduced another Private Member's Bill earlier this Session, which had its Second Reading on 16th January. Its purpose was to amend the Parliament Act 1949 to restore the ability of the second Chamber to delay Public Bills for two years once we had elected Members. I cannot pretend that I expected to change the British constitution in this manner, but I thought that it was a good opportunity, and I was supported by noble Lords from all parts of the House. I thought that it was an opportunity at least to have a discussion about the powers and duties of a reformed upper Chamber. I felt that until then, we had not had enough discussion about that. We had had a great deal of debate about the proportion between elected and appointed Members but we had had none about what a changed upper Chamber would do. Arguably, that should have come before the question of composition.

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I am therefore very pleased to see that it is spelt out so clearly in the terms of reference of the Select Committee. On the evening on which we discussed the Second Reading of my Bill, I thought that the Lord Privy Seal somewhat pooh-poohed the idea that once we had elected Members, the second Chamber would certainly be more legitimate. We would be reversing the process of the last century in which powers were taken away from the upper House—in 1911 and again in 1949—because of the presence of hereditary Peers and no elected Members.

At that time I thought that the Lord Privy Seal did not really agree with my point that once we were in part elected, legitimacy in some sense would return to the second Chamber and there was a case for more powers along with more duties. I thought that the reason was not only that the issue was extremely complicated—it would be difficult to persuade the Commons to give a second Chamber more powers—but that Ministers were pleased with the present arrangement. The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, speaking from the Cross Benches, said that we had,

"reached a situation of executive supremacy with which Ministers are wholly comfortable".

He added that the Government would tend to say:

"Let us not change that".—[Official Report, 16/1/02; col. 1116.]

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, is not with us today. I know that he is in Moscow improving his Russian, otherwise I am sure that he would say more on this issue.

The position of executive supremacy must change. I very much hope that the Joint Committee will study how it can be changed as that is very much a part of the process of reaching a new sensible constitutional settlement for the century ahead.

Paragraph (2)(a) refers to the Joint Committee considering and reporting on,

"any new procedures for resolving conflict between the two Houses".

It is very important that the Joint Committee should look at what happens in Senates or upper Houses in other parts of the world—in Australia, Canada, the United States and perhaps most particularly, in Germany. It has a relatively new constitution, largely shaped and formed by the British in 1945. Its means of avoiding gridlock between the two Houses is to have a joint mediation committee so that whenever the Bundestag and Bundesrat do not agree, a joint mediation committee, comprising 16 Members from each House, meets. It is required to seek a compromise that is acceptable to both Houses, which is the sort of avenue that a Joint Committee should be exploring.

That said, I know that the Lord Privy Seal will be very pleased to hear that in the light of those terms of reference I do not intend that my Bill should proceed to Committee stage.

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