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Lord Sheldon: My Lords, one of the most pleasant surprises in coming to this House was to see the difference between the retiring Chief Whip and the
ones whom we used to know. His civilised attitude did not impair the passage of legislation or the work that was being done, which is a tribute to him.Turning to the matters before us, will my noble and learned friend bear in mind the kind of conflict that could arise between elected Members and non-elected Peers? Elected Members will have constituents, and they may tread on the toes of other Members of Parliament. Constituents will say that they were not successful with their Member of Parliament but that they can go to Lord so-and-so. To a number of people, that continues to have resonance and dramatic conflicts could arise. Both groups will have electorates, but one could be seen as better placed than another.
Furthermore, two classes of Peer in this House will be difficult. Some will have research assistants, secretaries and the offices to go with them—then there will be the rest. They will not be quiet. During Question Time they will not give way in the courteous manner which we are used to. They will have to satisfy their constituents and they will demand to be heard. I am sorry if some Members do not understand that, but the other Chamber is like that and becoming more so. Having two classes of Peer will lead to some form of Speaker who will be able to choose who speaks and who puts the relevant questions. I have previously urged for that and it will become not only essential but vital.
Finally, we must exclude a list system. It is a kind of appointed system and there is little difference between the two systems. Other than that, I look forward to hearing the results of the work of the committee. It will need to take a large amount of evidence outside this House and this country and I look forward to seeing the solutions which it eventually puts forward.
4.30 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, before we hear anyone else, perhaps I may remind your Lordships what we are discussing—I beg your pardon, what we are supposed to be discussing.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I want to ask the noble and learned Lord one brief question. But before doing so, I want to say how sorry I am that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, is no longer Chief Whip. I do not like change much, as many noble Lords know, and this is a change that I do not like. In any event, how is the chairman of the Joint Committee to be chosen?
Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, we are not supposed to be discussing the retirement of the Government Chief Whip. None the less, I hope that I will not incur the wrath of the Leader of the House if I, as a new Member—possibly the newest of those who have spoken—express my gratitude to him for the way in which he has accommodated Members such as myself with his great consideration.
Perhaps I may say how pleased I am—and I hope that this is what we are supposed to be discussing—by the terms of reference which have been agreed by discussions through the usual channels in both
Houses. They appear to be wide enough to enable the committee to carry out the task which was discussed by Robin Cook, myself and our colleagues when we first recommended this outcome more than five years ago. We hoped that the proposal for the future of this House, which is so important to the distribution of power, might commend itself to those who know best how our two Houses of Parliament can work effectively. It was with that hope that the original recommendation was made.Having taken some five years to arrive at the terms of reference, notwithstanding the obvious attractions of reaching conclusions, I hope that the committee will be permitted to take evidence—oral and written—and to take time to order its preferences in a way which enables it to have influence over the minds of those who will ultimately have to decide.
Lord Elton: My Lords, first, I want to make the briefest of comments to the noble Lord the former Chief Whip. To have earned the popularity and affection of his own party was no mean achievement. To have earned it of my party was a triumph and I congratulate him on it.
I have one query about the words on the Order Paper and I am sure that the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House will be able to tell me the answer. In the first numbered paragraph appears the word "category" of Members. Will he kindly tell me what is the meaning of the word "category" as printed in inverted commas and what the meaning would be if there were no inverted commas around it? They are plainly there for a purpose and those who read the Motion need to know what that purpose is.
Secondly, I turn to a larger issue, but I shall again be brief. I want to say a few words to the Committee of Selection whose Members are before us. Will they recall that for 700 years this House consisted only of the hereditary peerage? No, that is not true: there were of course the Law Lords and the Bishops and I am most grateful to the Clerk of the Table for his expression in drawing me to order. Nevertheless, the bulk of your Lordships were here by hereditary succession. Some of us remain here—in some cases a trifle reluctantly and working a good deal harder than we had either wished or expected—in order to try and ensure that whatever comes after us is the least bad or as good as possible. I hope that the Committee of Selection will ensure that someone of worth and experience from the hereditary peerage is a member of the Joint Select Committee.
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, perhaps I may preface my few remarks by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Carter, that he has been a tremendous Chief Whip. It has been great to see him secure the admiration not only of his own side, as my noble friend Lord Elton said, but of all sides of the House. We are all grateful to him.
I wanted to congratulate the Government on bringing forward the Motion for a Joint Select Committee. It is not often that one has found it possible to congratulate the Government on many aspects of House of Lords reform. They began in a
dicey fashion and then said that there would be an all-party committee. We expected that to be appointed but it was not. The Government then published a White Paper and so forth, but the committee was not appointed. Eventually, they ran into internal problems and realised that the reform would founder. They have therefore produced an all-party Select Committee. I congratulate the Government and the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House. All I can say to him is that there is joy in the House over one sinner who repenteth and even more joy when there are two—and even more joy when they are both noble and learned Lords.I look forward to the appointment of the Select Committee whose terms of reference are wide and good. I have no doubt that it will consider the problem of hybridisation, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett—
Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I beg your Lordships' pardon, it was hybridity. That was a most helpful intervention and I am grateful! Huge problems will arise if the House has unelected and elected Members. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor began the debate by saying that he wanted 20 per cent elected. That so excited my party that Members went momentarily out of their senses by saying that they wanted 80 per cent. I hope that that will not happen because it will result in two classes of citizens. The elected Members will want to be paid but what about the unelected ones? Are they not to be paid? We will get into a muddle and I hope that the committee will address itself to that point. Clearly, "Peer" means equal and one cannot have two groups of people in the same Chamber being totally unequal.
I hope that the committee will also address itself to the question of what will happen to the life Peers. They have always smiled at the demise of the hereditary Peers, but they will have to wipe the smile off their faces because they will be the next to go. If the House is to consist of a certain number of Members, some will have to go. I am sure that the committee members will want to address their minds to that issue. Some noble Lords opposite did not like the House of Lords when they were outside it, but when they came here they liked it. They then realised that it does a good job of work and I am sure that they would be distressed to find themselves removed. However, we hereditary Peers are used to that—we are out one moment; then we are told to come back again; and now we are told to go out again! That will be an innovation for the life Peers.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I shall be very inappropriate and not comment at all on the Motion, except to welcome it. As a Back-Bencher, I simply want to extend a warm thanks to the noble
Lord, Lord Carter, for whom I have the greatest admiration and respect. I am sorrowful that he is going; indeed, I shall miss him. He is a very nice man.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, before I say anything, I think it would be appropriate to allow my noble friend Lord Carter to respond to the well-deserved words of praise.
Lord Carter: My Lords, perhaps I may remove myself from the strictures of the Companion, and say a few words that are not relevant to the Motion. Your Lordships have been much too kind. When the Prime Minister appointed me just over five years ago, he told me that he was giving me the toughest job in the Government. Actually, I have enjoyed every minute of it. I am really proud to have been Chief Whip in your Lordships' House; to have been a member of this Government; and to have played a small part in steering the programme of legislation on to the statute book.
I believe that I have worked with three Opposition Chief Whips: the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and the noble Lord, Lord Cope; I have worked with two Liberal Democrat Chief Whips—namely, the late Lord Harris of Greenwich and the noble Lord, Lord Roper—and also with the two Convenors, the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. Everyone of them has been a good friend and a colleague; and, indeed, a great help.
I have found both colleagues and friends—and I choose my words carefully—in every part of the House. I thank all noble Lords very much. However, there is still a good deal of business on the Order Paper. I was Chief Whip until 10 o'clock this morning, so I can say, "Please get on with it!"
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