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Lord Carter: My Lords, had I been Chief Whip, it would have been a two-clause Bill.
Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, we slimmed it down to 13 clauses, which was still a lot.
Everyone who is present tonight would rather that the Bill was a little more comprehensive, but beggars cannot be choosers. We are looking at a tiny advance towards a level playing field with other organisations.
I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, in his place. Earlier this evening, the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, was present. She had the pleasure of being president of the Cambridge Co-operative Society for many years. The House is a repository for a great many who have been involved in that way.
I very much liked what my noble friend Lord Morris said about the modernising possibilities in Clause 2, but the measure must be carried with a modicum of patience. We shall never get major advances, but we have a foot in the door at all sorts of places, not least the Treasury where the Ministers are. I was pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, took the opportunity to pinpoint successes outside the normal sphere of the consumer Co-operative movement. She painted a picture of what can happen if the idea of co-operation and mutuality is given a greater crack of the whip.
My noble friend Lord Fyfe made a unique contribution which went to the heart of what could have been a petrifying situation for the Co-operative movement. He used phrases that I have used before. I have said that the Co-operative movement never made a pauper nor a millionaire. It is not its job to make people either very poor or very rich. It has collective assets that need to be protected.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, shared our regret at the limited nature of Clause 2. But as my noble friend the former Chief Whip pointed out, the possibilities are there and provided that one can read across to any changes that take place, they can be applied to the co-operative system.
I was more than pleased to hear the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, because in the other place there was sparring and points were made. But I was delighted with the words of Christopher Chope at Third Reading when he spoke unashamedly of being satisfied that a good job had been done. Far more time was spent in the other place where consensus was reached than we are able to spend here.
The noble Earl, Lord Northesk, asked about fees. There is no question about that. I see that the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, is sitting next to him. She alluded to the concern in the Women's Institute movement about the possibilities. My noble friend Lord Carter has told us about the parameters in the matter.
My honourable friend Gareth Thomas and Mr Chope went to see representatives of the FSA to discuss the fees. I am informed that they were heard with respect and sympathy but were not told anything definite. The FSA was made fully aware of what we say are deleterious effects. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, gave an example of the fee being £25 this year and the possibility of having to pay £250. I remember
Mr Greg Knight reporting that an official had said, "Well, if you can't pay it, you need not join. You can go somewhere else".Our objective is to increase the number of organisations, not to diminish them or to lead them in the wrong direction. I am therefore optimistic. We must bear in mind that the fees issue is an FSA matter, not a legislative one, and that is accepted. When Hansard is read by officials of the FSA and they read the words of the noble Earl, Lord Northesk, and of noble Lords from all around the Chamber, they will be fully aware that the feelings expressed by Mr Chope and Mr Thomas are echoed here.
In case people believe that we are making too much of a meal of the issue, I say that we may never have another opportunity to put on the record two aspects. First, this House is as competently equipped as is the other place in terms of what is happening outside. Secondly, when people look back and ask what noble Lords did when they had the opportunity to speak, they will see that we did not just nod the legislation through but that we debated it for an hour and a half. That has served the cause well.
I am grateful to Mr Thomas and his colleagues on all sides in the other place for giving us a good review and to all colleagues and friends on all sides of this House today. I commend the Bill to the House.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) 2002
10.37 p.m.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton rose to move, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 9th May be approved [29th Report from the Joint Committee].
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, these draft regulations make minor adjustments to the Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. In part, the motivation is the very sad one that we must lift the requirement of the flying of the Union Flag from certain government buildings in Northern Ireland on the birthdays of the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret.
The other element of the regulations is much happier. They provide for the flag to be flown, as it will be elsewhere in the United Kingdom, during the weekend of celebrations for Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee from 1st to 4th June this year.
In Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the United Kingdom, the flying of flags on government buildings has been a matter of some controversy and in 2000 the then Secretary of State thought it right to legislate to establish arrangements which reflect the practice elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 permits the Secretary of State to make regulations, subject to consultation with the Assembly and the approval of both Houses here.
The draft instrument before us today is in the nature of routine maintenance on the earlier regulations. It is entirely consistent with them. The Assembly debated the draft amendments and a range of views was expressed. A copy of the Official Report of the debate has been made available to the House. It is fair to say that there was little opposition to the draft regulations in themselves and many Assembly Members expressly recognised the desirability of them.
Should noble Lords wish to know why we are making these minor amendments to legislation, I should explain that they are relatively small adjustments, although they reflect important events. However, that is the framework of the legislation: once it was decided to regulate by law in Northern Ireland matters that on this side of the water are simply a matter of administrative instruction, it was thought right to pin down very clearly what was to be done. I commend the draft regulations to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft regulations laid before the House on 9th May be approved [29th Report from the Joint Committee].—(Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton.)
Viscount Bridgeman: My Lords, as the noble Baroness said, these regulations cover the momentous events of the first six months of this year; namely, the sad death of Princess Margaret, and of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. However, as she also said, they reflect the particularly happy events that we are now about to witness. We are not required in this debate to debate the merits of the parent legislation. This is an administrative fine-tuning that is
entirely within the spirit and the intention of the original regulations. We are pleased to support the Motion from this side of the House.
Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I, too, support this amendment to the regulations. We are drawing to the close of a long, varied and eventful day and, again, this Motion has an element of both sadness and celebration. As has been mentioned, clearly the omissions must be made from the regulations because of the two sad Royal deaths. But, obviously, it is also a time of great celebration of the Golden Jubilee. It is right that the dates in that respect should be inserted into the legislation.
In many ways it is a great pity that we have to be making regulations about the flying of flags, but that is the way things stand. Is it not surprising that we are doing so in respect of Northern Ireland when, perhaps, there has been a freer flying of flags over the past few days than has been the case in this part of England for a long while? However, the flag has a greater prominence in Northern Ireland. I look forward to the day when it may not have such prominence, and people may perhaps be able to fly flags when they wish to do so; and, indeed, when we do not have to cover this by regulation. For the time being, noble Lords on these Benches support the amendment to the regulations.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Carter: My Lords, this is the last time that I shall have the opportunity to move the Motion. Therefore, I beg to move that the House, and the Chief Whip, do now adjourn.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at seventeen minutes before eleven o'clock.
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