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Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendments Nos. 23 and 24:

Page 34, line 4, leave out first "such" and insert "employment tribunal procedure"

Page 34, line 4, leave out second "such" and insert "conciliation"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Baroness Miller of Hendon moved Amendment No. 25:

Page 34, line 15, at end insert—

"( ) The Secretary of State shall, within 180 days of this section coming into force, prepare and publish an assessment of the additional resources required by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service to facilitate the conciliation process as provided for in this section."

30 May 2002 : Column 1544

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I return to this amendment which, persuaded by the Minister, I withdrew in Committee, but which I have now amended to take into account what was said in the previous short debate. It requires the Government to publish an assessment of the additional resources required by ACAS to facilitate all of the extra duties that it will have to undertake to fulfil the additional work that the Bill will impose on it.

I have, however, altered the time frame for that report from 120 days from the coming into force of the Act—four months—to 180 days, which is six months. I did so in response to what the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said in Committee. He said:

"I am absolutely certain that the Government have no idea about that, but how could they have? How could they have in 120 days?".—[Official Report, 18/3/02; col. CWH 146.]

I have proposed an extra two months, which should be plenty of time for ACAS to work out what extra staff and facilities it will need, especially as it does not have to wait for the Bill to passed before it starts its forward planning. It could have begun work on contingency plans on the day that the Bill was published last February. I cannot believe that it will wait for applications to start flooding in before it begins to think how to handle them.

I was surprised that the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, spoke against my amendment in Committee because only five days previously in the same Committee, he said:

"I support a subsequent amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, which relates to ACAS because at least it is relatively precise. I am not against attempts to try to work out the cost of Bills".—[Official Report, 13/3/02; col. CWH 57.]

Of course, it is the noble Lord's privilege to change his mind, but since I do not know why he did so, I hope that he will change it back again as I have now increased the time to six months—a period that he himself mentioned in his speech.

In his reply, the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, regaled us with figures for the funding of ACAS, which he said had risen from £26.2 million in 1998-99 to £36.6 million in 2001-02. According to my pocket calculator, that is an increase of more than 28 per cent. I am impressed because during that time, due largely to the wise trade union legislation introduced by the previous government, the number of strikes decreased. To give ACAS credit, perhaps its increased budget also had something to do with that. But the Minister was being too defensive. I was not complaining about the probable cost of ACAS's new responsibilities. I wanted only to be told what it was likely to be.

The Minister also told the Committee that the Government had set up yet another task force: the Employment Tribunal System Taskforce. He said that one of the duties of that task force will be to advise the Government on the need for new investment. So the Government will not really need the six months that I am offering them because the Minister told the Committee that he believed that the task force was to report "in the spring". It is now 30th May, and spring has definitely sprung. When will the task force's report

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be published? If the Minister is still unable to commit himself, will he either undertake to table an amendment at Third Reading or, at the least, give us an undertaking as to when he can tell us how much of our money ACAS will need to spend? I beg to move.

2.45 p.m.

Lord McCarthy: My Lords, I owe the noble Baroness an explanation. In general terms, I am in favour of research; it is, after all, how I get my living. However, the more I thought about the matter, the more it appeared that there were so many variables. It is virtually impossible for anybody to calculate the impact on ACAS, and that worries me considerably. However, we will not be able to do it by research.

If the Government were right in what they said in Routes to Resolution—they do not say it so much now—they would expect a considerable reduction in the number of hearings. They do not like us to keep on about that, and they say, "Well, if we said that, we said it, but don't keep on about it. We haven't the slightest idea whether it is going up, down or sideways". They are right: they do not have the slightest idea.

I shall not bore the House about the new liabilities, but there will be a considerable number of them over the next two or three years. God knows what that will do to the workload of the tribunal. So, I have reached a position of glorious agnosticism: good luck to ACAS. It should be given a large cheque and be allowed to sign it itself. I do not have the slightest idea what it will mean.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, is my noble friend Lord McCarthy aware that the Minister of State, my honourable friend Mr Alan Johnson, said on the BBC's "Nice Work" programme on 23rd April that, in the first year, there would be a reduction of 34,000 cases?

Lord McCarthy: My Lords, I knew that he had said that, but I did not think that it was fair to repeat it.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am happy not to intervene in that part of the debate. I shall address the amendment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Hendon, is being generous in allowing 60 days. If we had a Third, Fourth or Fifth Reading, she might add another 60 days each time. However, the length of time is not the reason why we cannot accept the amendment. ACAS is an independent public body, and the manner in which it chooses to allocate its resources is a question for it. It is open to question whether we should go as far as allowing ACAS to sign its own cheque, as my noble friend Lord McCarthy suggested. However, I am happy to address the substance of the amendment, which is that the Government should publish an assessment of the extra resources needed because of the policy.

We neither intend nor expect that a fixed period of consultation should lead to an increase in resource requirements for ACAS. We expect that the fixed

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period will lead to a change in the point on the timeline of cases at which conciliation will take place at ACAS, not to a change to the number of cases or the level of resources to be expended on them. The point at which conciliation occurs in the timeline of the work of ACAS should not have an impact on the cost involved in providing the conciliation. Any changes to the number of cases coming to ACAS as a result of other measures in the Bill that are not covered by the amendment are unlikely to have effects within six months of the legislation coming into force. To that extent, I am unhappy about the 180 days.

There will be an assessment of the impact of the Bill on the Employment Tribunals Service and on ACAS, once the provisions have been implemented and have had time to settle in. The regulatory impact assessment, which is available in the Library, gives estimates of the impact on ETS and ACAS resources. Early on in the bedding-down process of the new provisions, it will be hard to improve on the estimates in the regulatory impact assessment because of difficulties in distinguishing the effects of the individual changes from other factors which influence resources.

We are very conscious of the important role that ACAS plays in preventing and resolving workplace disputes. I am nervous about returning to Routes to Resolution, but responses to that document confirm the regard which many people and organisations have for ACAS. It is not our intention to request ACAS to take on new responsibilities without the resources to do them justice. That would be nonsense. As I explained in Committee, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, quoted, the increase from 1998-99 to 2000-01 was from £22.6 million to £32.4 million, an increase of 23 per cent. I hope that her calculations are the same as mine.

That shows the Government's recognition of the importance of ACAS's role. We will discuss with ACAS any expected changes to its workload resulting from facilitating the conciliation process as provided for in the clause as part of the consideration of its bid for the 2002 spending round.

Reference has been made to the Employment Tribunal System Taskforce which is considering the resources of the employment tribunal system as a whole. The taskforce is due to report in July and will take account of all its recommendations when considering the funding needs of ACAS. I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will not press her amendment.

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, for giving me an explanation of his chain of thought which came about after reflection of the matter. Before that reflection, he obviously thought my idea was a good one, but upon reflection he did not. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learnt in that.

I intend to withdraw the amendment but perhaps I may point out one matter to the Minister for the sake of clarity and accuracy. He said that I repeated the

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figure which he gave. I gave the figure of £26.2 million but he gave one of £22.6 million. He did not correct me, so I am not sure whether I was wrong or he was.

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