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Lord Dearing: My Lords, I was invited to contribute. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, challenged me to honour a claim that I made under the influence of a glass of very good red wine over dinner, so I had better try to be an honourable claimant.
In the previous debate on this matter, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, at a very late hour and with suitable apologies, asked what was the distinctive contribution of Church schools, and he has asked the same question tonight. We began the day by talking about the purposes of education. Noble Lords will recall the references to the broad and balanced curriculum which,
- "promotes the spiritual, moral, cultural, mental and physical development of pupils"—
It has been said that if spirituality is the journey, then religion is the vehicle. RE is part of the curriculum of all schools, as is worship. What is distinctive about Church schools is that this is their raison d'etre, their distinctiveness. In an increasingly secular society, perhaps one might claim that if spirituality is a valid experience—I shall come to that—it contributes to society to have among its schools those that place a special emphasis on that journey.
Is it a reality? Well, it is a reality if you think that it is a reality. I think that I once mentioned in chatter to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that a Darwinist of some distinction, Sir Alister Hardy, professor of zoology at the University of Oxford and an FRS, produced a hypothesis in the mid-1960s that the religious or spiritual sense in humankind was a selective advantage. That hypothesis has been taken very seriously. A small department was set up at Oxford, which now exists in the University of Wales.
From time to time, surveys are carried out. I am told that it is a characteristic that in Europe, while there is a sense of spirituality, it is not associated with formal engagement in any religious practice, as it is throughout the rest of the world. In an article published by one of the staff of the University of Nottingham in 2000, reference is made to surveys on the frequency of reports of religious or spiritual experience in Britain in 1987 and 2000. The article then gives some analysis. In 1987, 48 per cent claimed it. That is analysed under various headings. In 2000, the figure is 76 per cent. I attach no significance to the increase in percentage. However, I attach significance to the fact that it is part of people's feeling about their experience in life.
Why would someone such as Hardy think that there is a selective advantage? That, too, has been thought about by others better than I. Very simply, if you feel that you are part of a world that is within the hand of God and he cares about you, you have an extra resilience in coping with adversity and at times an extra courage, an extra enthusiasm and sometimes an extra peace and solace.
My answer to the first question of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is that the Church schools make a distinctive contribution within the whole to the spiritual and moral dimension of education. He may want to ask about the connection between spirituality and morality. Religions have always had a moral code. Others have argued more strongly that in many cases a society's morality is derived from its religion. Some have even said that no great civilisation has long survived the demise of its religious faith. I cannot prove that statement, but there is a connection.
The noble Lord's second question was why, in an increasingly secular society, parents who are not church attenders choose to send their children to a Church school. Why does a survey of 80 secondary schools by the Association of Anglican Secondary School Heads show that, whereas in 1996 there were 1.3 applications for every place, by 2000 there were 1.6 applications for every place, with a steady increase in the intervening years? We can only speculate. I suspect that sometimes it is because, for whatever reason, Church schools have a reputation for good education results. I am not going to get into controversy about that. I had a hand in a report on the subject that shows the statistical analysis.
I suspect that ordinary folk have a perhaps unformed religious—or perhaps it is better to say spiritual—element in their experience of life. Although they want no part of formal religion, which in its practice is very dull rather than exciting, they feel it fitting that their children should go to a place where spirituality is taken seriously. I also think that they know the ordinary moral code that goes with that religion and perhaps feel some sense of security with it.
Church schools, perhaps paradoxically, are in increasing demand in a secular society. Perhaps it is because society is increasingly secular that many parents find some security in the ordinariness and familiarity of the moral values that the Church stands for. Noble Lords may ask me why so many Muslims choose to send their children to a Church school. I may have said before that a distinguished Muslim gave the answer to the Bishop of London when he said, "We divide the world into those who believe in God and those who do not. Your lot do so you are OK". Muslims follow a religion of the Book. They feel comfortable with a school where spirituality is real and where religion is practised sensitively.
I believe that the noble Lord said that it was no longer valid to say that religious education in this country could be based on the Christian faith as we are a multicultural society. However, I well remember chairing a conference in London at which the then Secretary of State for Education, the Archbishop of Canterbury and representatives of all the six main faiths—I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, was a Minister at the time—agreed to draft a moral statement. That was a wonderful thing. I cannot think of anywhere else in the world where six faiths could sit down together and over a year or two work through an agreed statement of religious education covering the six faiths. That shows that we are a civilised society. It
also shows that the faiths are not at each others' throats. An Archbishop of Canterbury said of Church of England schools that they exist to nourish those of the faith in their faith, to encourage those of other faiths and perhaps to challenge those of other faiths.I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this matter so openly and for giving us an opportunity to discuss these deep issues. It is right that they are reconsidered from time to time. At the moment, in spite of all the controversies, parents say often, "I should like my child to go to a Church school".
9.15 p.m.
Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Dearing and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn, I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for laying the amendment before your Lordships' House. We all know that this issue has stalked the Bill all the way through its proceedings. It is better that it is placed on the table in this way and that we can debate it fully. Like others, I am sorry only that there are not more noble Lords present to debate these deep and important questions.
The noble Lord's inventiveness has never been in doubt. He remarked that he had gone to some lengths to place an amendment before the House. It is not his inventiveness but the effect of the amendment that troubles me. He said that it has its origins in the 1944 debates. We can go back to Victorian times and Edwardian times and the 1911 debates about Rome on the rates. As the noble Lord knows, at that time there was a great debate between non-conformists and the Roman Catholic Church as to whether it would be permissible for Catholic churches to establish parish schools. The argument was then put that it would be better for those schools to be within the system than outside it. As the noble Lord said, that matter was finally resolved in 1944. It is to everyone's advantage that those schools are within the system. As the right reverend Prelate said, that has enabled those schools to be properly inspected and to ensure that they uphold the kind of civic values that your Lordships would have a right to expect.
We have differences as regards matters of faith—as the noble Lord and I have—but we do not have differences as regards the need to cherish core values of belief in civil society and the upholding of liberty and democracy and the rule of law. The noble Lord has a right to argue that those matters should be promoted inside schools whether they are Church schools or secular schools. I entirely agree with that. I have four children in a denominational school and I am a product of denominational schools. I chose to send my children to such a school after paying my taxes towards the maintenance of the whole of the state sector and schools to which I did not choose to send my children. Parents of children in schools in the voluntary-aided sector pay at least 15 per cent more—it is often more—towards the education that their children receive. As the right reverend Prelate said, that is added value. We should be careful before we start to dismantle for either social or economic reasons a system that has served us so well.
The noble Lord also asked whether we could provide evidence of what he described as productive educational achievement. The noble Lord, Lord Dearing, went some way to answer that. I refer to some remarks made by Dr Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi. He said:
- "Denominational schools have a great strength. Often, they have a clear ethos that gives consistency and power to the lessons they teach".
- "are less likely to lie, steal or to drink alcohol illicitly. The evidence is that teaching about the morality of everyday life does make a difference".
It is hard in some ways to sum up precisely what the "added value" is that parents choose when they choose a denominational school. Dom Aidan Bellenger, a Benedictine monk at Downside Abbey, gave a lecture at York Minster last year on Christian education. He said:
- "A Christian education, like prayer, should lift up the heart and mind to God. It should also remind us that the Christian life is about holy dying as well as about holy living. Only in eternal life with God, as Dante reminds us, will Christian education find its true ends".
At the more empirical level, we can turn to bodies such as Ofsted. Its annual report for 2000-01 contained a list of particularly successful schools, which included a high number of Catholic schools. Ninety secondary schools were listed, of which 15 were Catholic, and 206 primary schools were listed, of which 42 were Catholic. When one considers that Catholic schools provide only 10 per cent of schools nationally, it is clear that they are included to a higher proportion than their overall share of the maintained sector would suggest.
The noble Lord asked about the productive educational achievements of those schools. That can be answered properly and well at two levels: at the spiritual level and purely in terms of how well those schools are doing as educational institutions. He also asked: what is their point? Although they have no point for the noble Lord, they do have a point for hundreds of thousands of people in this country. It is true, as he said, that some of those people are not regular churchgoers but that confuses two matters. Many who have religious faith do not necessarily attend a church on a Sunday. My only disappointment is that there are not enough places in many secondary schools—especially Anglican schools—in this country to accommodate all of those who would wish to have those special values transmitted to their children. The report that was promoted by my noble friend Lord Dearing and which has been accepted implicitly in the
Bill and in earlier legislation means that that opportunity will now be there for parents who were previously frustrated, and for people of other faiths.In that regard, I agree with the right reverend Prelate: it would be discriminatory not to provide the same opportunities for people who do not have a Christian or Jewish background but who want the same opportunities for their children. As I said earlier, however, the issue is whether we can have shared civic values. If there are not shared civic values in such schools, the noble Lord has a perfect right to raise that matter in future and I should be the first to join him in expressing concern.
The noble Lord touched on the question of choice. "Choice" is a fairly over-used word; I believe that it comes from the same Greek root as the word "heresy". The idea that I can make as many choices as I want with total freedom, as if there were no consequences for others, is a sort of modern heresy. Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow, and freedom for the hunter is death for the hunted. If we exercise our choices, that is bound to be at somebody else's expense. In providing the most fair, reasonable and equitable education system, we must ensure that there is equality of opportunity for children from whatever background.
I want to deal with one or two other issues before concluding. In earlier debates—at Second Reading and in Committee—various caricatures were made of Church schools. I have tried to look at some of them objectively. I visit schools of various religious backgrounds on a fairly regular basis. It would repay serious study if the noble Lord and others looked at a document published in 1997 and entitled Catholic Schools and Other Faiths. It deals with some of the issues that have been raised. I shall not go into it in great detail; that would not be appropriate at Report stage. However, perhaps I may deal with three questions which were raised earlier in our debate and which are covered in that report.
The first deals with openness. The Church said:
- "When a school admits a proportion of children from other faith communities, it should recognise that it is taking on a commitment and a relationship to those communities which calls for a higher degree of openness and dialogue. To do this will require the wholehearted support of the trustees, governors, teachers, parents and diocesan authorities".
Secondly, with regard to serving the community, it says:
- "Catholic schools may find themselves in places heavily populated by people of other faiths, including parents wishing to send their children to Catholic schools. Some of these people may be among the poorest and most vulnerable in the area. In such a situation, a Catholic school might wish to take on a particular responsibility towards the local community".
The third point concerns the religious education syllabus:
- "It (the school) should ensure that the Religious Education programme includes teaching with integrity about other faiths in their relationship to Christianity ... There may also be a need to
- hold Parents' Evenings to explore the role of the Catholic school in relation to other faiths . . . The school should be ready to share resources with other schools and with other faith communities"—
- "especially if the Catholic school is situated in an area of deprivation or racial tension".
The Church has also drafted guidelines for Catholic schools which are considering the admission of pupils of other faiths. Those demonstrate a recognition of the need for Catholic schools to be beacons of hospitality and service to the local community. Again, they are far removed from the inaccurate caricature of Church schools that is too often propounded. Those guidelines state, first, that:
- "The school should consider the nature of the existing diversity of religious understanding and commitment among its present Catholic or Christian pupils, and how this may be influenced by admitting pupils of other Faiths".
- "The school should consult with parents of other faiths who might wish to send their children to the school, and with the Spiritual leaders of their faith communities in order to clarify their expectations and requirements and to see what sort of creative relationship can be established".
- "The school should also seek to clarify situations where any of its practices or policies seem to people of other faiths to constitute proselytising".
- "Any school pursuing a philosophy of dialogue will need to strive to affirm and strengthen the differing religious identities, traditions and backgrounds of the pupils, while at the same time seeking to help pupils and staff to recognise and value what their differing beliefs have in common".
It is important to make clear that those extracts state the policy of the Catholic Church towards the role of its schools in our communities. I believe that they go a long way towards meeting many of the criticisms that have been made.
Finally, I believe that those who wish to abolish Church or faith schools or certainly those with any kind of maintenance from the state—that would be the effect of the amendment—or in any way to dilute their freedom over admissions policies would do well to read those 1997 guidelines. They demonstrate that fidelity to the mission of the Church and openness and dialogue with those of other faiths and none are compatible and that they offer a blueprint for the future development of Church schools.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, is right to remind us of the fallibility of those who have a religious faith. We all know that we are called because we are sinners rather than because we are virtuous. If one looks at the history of religious faith—whether it is the Inquisition or any of the worst moments of our
history where religion has been a part of it—there is plenty there to illustrate the point of the American Rabbi who said:
- "I hear this talk of Christian society and all I see is barbed wire".
It might also be pointed out that in the 20th century some of the worst tyrannies and ideologies, such as fascism and communism, involved people such as Stalin, Hitler and Mussolini, who came with no faith. Certainly none of the tyrannical, totalitarian policies that they promoted were based on religious extremism.
Therefore, we all need to approach this issue with a sense of humility. We also need to remember that, where religious impulse works for the common good—one thinks of people such as Lord Shaftesbury or William Wilberforce—it can make a radical difference in the life of society. I believe that we would be unwise to dismiss that tradition, to relegate it or in any way to undermine it, as I believe the amendment would do.
9.30 p.m.
Baroness David: My Lords, I should like to be totally honest in this debate. I shall not follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his long defence of the Roman Catholic Church. My position is really very different. I do not believe in religious schools in the state; I do not believe in any faith schools. I should prefer this to be a totally secular society, with totally secular schools.
I realise that my remarks will probably offend most noble Lords who have spoken in this debate tonight, except perhaps my noble friend Lord Peston. However, I should like to express my point of view. I believe that faith schools are dangerous. One has only to look at Northern Ireland. I have long been a supporter of integrated schools in the Province because I believe that to be the best hope for that society. I would be frightened of us going down the way of having totally religious schools of different denominations, and so on, in this country. I would rather have none.
However, I do not think that that is a popular view at present. When I served on an admissions and appeals committee for Cambridgeshire County Council—perhaps before the time of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch—one knew about the pressures to get into Church schools because parents thought that those who attended such schools were better-behaved children and that they were well looked after; and, indeed, they were. At that time, the education in Church schools was not very good, though it is perhaps better now.
I am frightened of going down this route, though perhaps it is not very dangerous. Many people say, "Well, there won't be many of them, and it won't make any difference". But I am afraid that it might. Therefore, my attitude is not to help them. I just hope that we shall not put too much money into them when it might be going to other schools that have a greater need for it. I am completely in support of all those who have spoken today against more money going to successful schools, with less money going to deprived schools. I just wanted to make my position quite clear,
because I have not previously spoken freely on the matter. It seemed to me that this was the moment to do so. I do not believe that I shall receive much support, but I just wanted to express my opinion and say what I really believe in.
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