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Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 37:
- Page 12, line 2, at beginning insert "except in the case of a voluntary aided school"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 37, I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 39.
In relation to Amendment No. 37, I announced in Committee that I would table an amendment to correct a drafting error in Clause 18(2)(d). As drafted, this clause requires all schools to have at least one community governor, currently known as co-opted governors. Voluntary-aided schools have never had co-opted governors and we did not propose to change this. Amendment No. 37 will provide that Clause 18(2)(d) does not apply to voluntary-aided schools. I hope therefore that the House will accept this amendment.
I turn to Amendment No. 39. This addresses concerns expressed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Blackburn in Committee about securing a majority of foundation governors in voluntary-aided schools.
This amendment will put on the face of the Bill that in voluntary-aided schools, foundation governors will have the majority over the other governors. I also promised in Committee that we would provide for the level of the majority in regulations and that regulations would provide for a majority of two foundation governors in voluntary-aided schools, as we proposed in The Way Forward consultation paper. I should like to repeat that commitment to the whole of your Lordships' House. I trust that that will meet the right reverend Prelate's concerns. I beg to move.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment No. 38 which stands in my name. However, first, I express my gratitude to the Minister for Amendment No. 37 and particularly for Amendment No. 39. We are enormously grateful for that and, indeed, for the following regulations which will stipulate a majority of at least two.
We are also grateful to the Minister for the opportunity to discuss wider issues to do with the governance of voluntary schools. Therefore, I make no apology for returning to the matter of the governance of
controlled schools and the number of foundation governors for such schools. I am sure that all noble Lords will appreciate that the foundation governors of a controlled school have a particular responsibility to ensure the continuance of the distinctive character of such schools within the 1944 settlement and subsequent education Acts. Given that responsibility—it is quite different from the responsibilities of stakeholder governors, for which the Bill provides—we believe that the amendment contains a very modest request indeed. Foundation governors are not on a par with the other categories of governor. Their presence, after all, is one of the ways in which a voluntary controlled school differs from a community school. Hence our wish for this modest provision.If there were just one foundation governor, that would put the odds very much against him or her being able to make a real or appropriate contribution in the face of, for example, a governing body—the majority of its members are appointed for very different reasons—that may not appreciate the religious character of the school or may even be hostile to it.
I chair the governing body of at least two higher education institutions. Student representation on those bodies is usually officially one. However, I always invite a second student because I feel that it is very important for the first student to have support. Moreover, in the report back to the body from which they come, that approach provides someone alongside the officially elected person to collaborate and confirm matters. The foundation governors must at some point presumably report back either to the local church council or to the diocesan authorities about what is happening in a particular controlled school. They would be well advised if there were two such persons, who supported one another and were able to collaborate in the "reporting back" process. While expressing gratitude for the amendments that the Minister will move, it is for that reason that I beg her to reconsider the position regarding controlled schools and to ensure that this modest amendment appears in the Bill rather than in regulations.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland: My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for moving Amendment No. 38. I am pleased to be able to say to him that there is no difference of principle between us. I confirm that it is our intention to provide for a minimum of two foundation governors or partnership governor places at foundation and voluntary controlled schools.
Our plan is to ensure that that is the case in regulations. As I have previously said in your Lordships' House, our approach is to set out the key principles in primary legislation and the detailed provision in regulations. That is why the level of representation of the different categories of governors will be defined in regulations. However, I can confirm that the minimum of two governors will be secured in regulations. I hope that my assurance that regulations will provide for the level of representation that the
right reverend Prelate seeks will be enough to satisfy him and that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.I add, although I suspect that this will not tempt him at this hour, that the amendment is technically defective in that it does not take into account the interaction with Clause 18(2)(e). Moreover, my door, as the right reverend Prelate knows, is always open to discuss these matters again.
The Lord Bishop of Blackburn: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, on the previous amendment, I am rather disappointed by that response although it is not totally unexpected. I promised the Minister that I would not tonight refer to "half full and half empty" but I cannot resist doing so at this time of night! I am grateful to her for her categorical assurance that provision will be made in regulations for two foundation governors for voluntary controlled schools. With that assurance, I shall not press the amendment.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland moved Amendment No. 39:
- Page 12, line 24, at end insert—
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 40:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 42 to 45.
In a way, this amendment continues our debate on what is necessary and unnecessary. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, we have relatively new provisions on the statute book, which are only just bedding down. It is important that they should be left there.
In addition, in relation to my perennial theme about regulations, there appears to be a surfeit of them in this part of the Bill in particular. When one asks the fundamental question of what value the regulations add to teaching and learning in schools, it is difficult to obtain a positive answer.
The Local Government Association said that regulation is the enemy of innovation. The Government have made much of deregulation in the Bill. Shifting primary legislation to regulations made by secondary legislation is not deregulation. Deregulation occurs only where the primary legislation sets out principles and then allows local bodies to get on and do the job. I agree with that because it seems to me to be precisely what should happen. Therefore, I propose that Clauses 18, 19, 20(3), 21 and 22 should not stand part of the Bill.
The reason that I seek to oppose only subsection (3) of Clause 20 is that I believe that it makes a fundamental statement about the responsibility of governing bodies. Subsections (1) and (2) state:
The noble Baroness said—I agreed with her—that where regulations are set out in this part of the Bill, they are to replace other regulations; in other words, some regulations are being repealed and these are to be put in their place. I question whether the regulations need to be repealed so soon after being established. I accept that they are replacing other regulations; therefore, that represents work for schools. As the noble Baroness said, it does not mean more regulation. I accept that. But a change in the regulations means more reading and more inward digesting of change. A great deal of work for every single school in the country will be involved in finding out what is changing and why it is changing, and in shedding the governors who no longer qualify to be members of a governing body and in employing new ones who come under the rules set out in the Bill.
However, a basic question needs to be asked. Do some of these areas require any regulation at all? Is it not enough, for example, to state that schools should appoint a clerk to the governing body without having a raft of regulations? Would the sky fall in if that were to happen?
Finally, I wanted to refer to a letter sent to me by the noble Baroness the Minister, following the Committee stage, but I cannot find it at present. The fundamental point that I wanted to make was that the recent regulations are barely in place. They are bedding down and should be left alone. I do not believe that any overriding argument can be made to justify all this change. As I said, change will mean more work for the schools because they must find out what the change is and what it is for and they must absorb the new compositions. Given the fundamental role of governing bodies, I believe that they can be trusted to get on with the job. I beg to move.
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment No. 41. When this amendment was moved in Committee by my noble friend Lady Sharp
Clearly, under both arrangements schools can propose their own draft instrument to the LEA for its approval, but putting the LEAs' ultimate responsibility on the face of the Bill makes it all the more difficult to sideline the local education authority at some date in the future. The Minister will be aware that it is the constant suspicion of noble Lords on these Benches that the Government have the ultimate objective of getting rid of the LEAs that makes us so anxious to put barriers in their way. Perhaps the noble Baroness would like to allay our suspicions by accepting our amendment.
"(3A) Regulations made by virtue of subsection (3)(a) must secure that the majority of the governors of a voluntary aided school are persons appointed as foundation governors."
Leave out Clause 18.
"Subject to any other statutory provision, the conduct of a maintained school shall be under the direction of the school's governing body . . . The governing body shall conduct the school with a view to promoting high standards of educational achievement at the school".
That is what governing bodies do, and I suspect that it would be a brave act on the part of any government—in that I include my own, previous government—to leave schools to get on and do that. Given that they are accountable to the parents and the local community and, of course, more formally, that they are accountable through the inspectorate, I suspect that they would not go far wrong. In fact, we might be surprised to find that different schools were extremely innovative in the way that they met their obligations under the law to promote high standards of educational achievement at their schools. Fundamentally, that is what they are about.
10.45 p.m.
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